HL Deb 09 December 1971 vol 326 cc888-91
LORD WALSTON

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government, in the event of agreement being reached with the Rhodesian régime, what steps will be taken to persuade the United Nations to reverse its mandatory decision on sanctions against Rhodesia: and if the United Nations should be unwilling to do this, whether Her Majesty's Government will accept the United Nations decision.]

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, in regard to sanctions the immediate concern is with what happens in consequence of the recent agreement as described in Proposals for a Settlement. On this our position is clear: sanctions are meantime to continue as they did before. There will be several further steps to be taken, including the completion of the vital Test of Acceptability. before any formal ending of sanctions comes into sight. It is therefore premature to speculate about the circumstances in which sanctions will come to an end. All I can say at this stage on the Question raised by the noble Lord is that in the light of the future developments envisaged, other countries will surely recognise, as we ourselves will, that a restoration of legality in Rhodesia would cause a fundamental alteration in the situation which originally occasioned the imposition of sanctions by the Security Council.

LORD WALSTON

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Marquess for that long Answer to my Question, but I am still in a quandary, as I think many other people are, over this. Am I right in assuming that Her Majesty's Government have in fact given a black-and-white undertaking to the Rhodesian Government, or the Rhodesian régime, that sanctions will be removed if satisfactory arrangements can be completed? Am I also right in thinking that under the United Nations procedure we are bound by mandatory sanctions, so that we have in fact given an undertaking which it is not in our power to fulfil unilaterally?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, on the first two points, I think that the noble Lord is perfectly correct. I have tried to answer his Question as fully as I can at this stage. At this moment of time it is very difficult for Her Majesty's Government to envisage what may happen in this matter in the future. So much is in the air at the moment and, if I may suggest it, I think it better that we should leave it for the time being.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, is the noble Marquess aware that, although he may think it is better, the fact is that the House was advised, presumably, when we voted, that the Government had foreseen likely events? Is he really suggesting that the Government are going on without having taken any view as to whether we are going to break a mandatory resolution in this way? We really shall have to press the Government harder on this matter.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

No, my Lords. Obviously Her Majesty's Government are considering various contingencies which may or may not arise in this regard. I am sorry that I cannot go further in this matter to-day. I hope that the noble Lord will accept the assurance that I can give him that we are considering these matters very deeply When I said I did not know what was going to happen, I was, of course, referring to the result of the Test of Acceptability. We do not yet know how this is going to turn out.

LORD GARDINER

My Lords, as I raised this question during the debate without getting an answer, may I ask the Government whether when they included in their proposals the statement that sanctions would in a certain event be lifted they did not then apply their minds to how they proposed to overcome any resolution of the Security Council?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I think it is perfectly right for me to say that this is obviously a matter which will be discussed in the United Nations. But I cannot to-day, I am afraid, elaborate any further on it.

LORD FOOT

My Lords, when the noble Lord says that this Question and Answer are premature, does he mean that the Government have not considered what their position will be in the event of the United Nations refusing to remove the mandatory sanctions; or does he mean that it is not convenient to him to tell us?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, what I meant by "premature" was that we did not know how events were going to turn out in Rhodesia concerning the Test of Acceptability.

LORD MILVERTON

My Lords, is it not a fact that the imposition of sanctions by the United Nations upon a country which is not independent is utterly immoral and illegal under the Constitution of the United Nations, and that it must be admitted—which it is not, apparently—that Rhodesia is an independent country, in which case the United Nations can take action? Is is not a fact that everything that we are doing now implies that Rhodesia is not independent; that it is a country which is still in a major way dependent on this country?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, these are all matters which are very much in the mind of the Government at the moment. It is true that at the present time Rhodesia is not an independent country.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, can the noble Marquess answer at least one part of his noble friend's supplementary question, whether putting sanctions on was an immoral act? What is the view of the Government?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I think that this is getting a little wide of the mark, if I may say so.

LORD SEGAL

My Lords, is the noble Marquess fully aware that it is far easier to impose sanctions than to succeed in lifting them.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

Yes, my Lords.

LORD WALSTON

My Lords, may I, finally, ask the noble Marquess whether I and other noble Lords and people outside this House would be wrong in drawing one of two conclusions from his answer: either that Her Majesty's Government did not give sufficient thought to this matter when they gave the undertaking to Mr. Smith, or that they did give sufficient thought to it and are prepared to proceed regardless of what the United Nations may say?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have given a lot of thought to this matter. What I have been trying to say to the House to-day is that we do not think at this stage, before we know how things are going to turn out in Rhodesia, that it would be proper for me to say any more.