§ 2.45 p.m.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the improved situation due to the presence of the Chinese Republic in the United Nations, the number of officers and other ranks in Hong Kong can now be reduced.]
EARL FERRERSNo, my Lords. The presence of the People's Republic of China in the United Nations does not diminish the requirement for the present level of forces which has been agreed between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Hong Kong to be necessary to fulfil our responsibilities for the maintenance of the stability and security of the Colony.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, docs the Minister apprehend a conflict in that area or aggression from the Chinese People's Republic? If it is merely continuing our historic role associated with our past imperialist attitude, why should we maintain what amounts to the equivalent of two battalions in that area? What is the purpose of it? In view of the paucity 788 of the ground troops in Western Europe, a fact well known to all Members of your Lordships' House, would it not be more advantageous to transport the troops now in Hong Kong to Western Europe, and to associate them with the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the troops which are in Hong Kong are there in order that the garrison strength should be about right for the internal security task and for any external threat which may occur. Of course we do not anticipate such a threat, but the Government have a duty in this matter and have agreed with the Hong Kong Government on the size of the garrison necessary to fulfil these obligations.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is the term "internal security" relevant in this situation? Security against what and against whom? Unless there is apprehension about aggression, disturbances, conflict or hostilities—and obviously there is nothing of the sort—what is the purpose of maintaining troops there? I am in favour of maintaining forces—
§ LORD SHINWELLDoes anybody question that? Perhaps my record in that respect is as good as that of any Member of your Lordships' House. So we had better have no more of that nonsense.
§ LORD SHINWELLOrder yourselves!If I am interrupted in this unseemly fashion, I have to reply.
§ LORD BYERSThe House is not interrupting the noble Lord. It is trying to keep order because we have no Speaker. The House must do this.
§ LORD SHINWELLI am now being instructed by the noble Lord, Lord Byers. I am asking a question. If there is no apprehension about aggression, what is the purpose of maintaining troops there, including a headquarters staff which is very expensive? Would it not be better to deploy them in areas where there is a possibility of conflict?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the obligation which Her Majesty's Government 789 have, together with the Hong Kong Government, is to ensure adequate protection for internal security. As noble Lords know, Hong Kong is a small Colony and highly populated. There have been troubles in the past and the troops are there to help the civil authorities should the occasion arise.
§ LORD RHODESMy Lords, is it not desirable to have a thoroughgoing review into the role and cost of the forces in Hong Kong? Has it not been a very costly operation to hold the fort for international financiers and entrepeneurs so that they may take advantage of cheap labour and dump goods into this country, to the detriment of Lancashire?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I do not think the noble Lord would expect me to go the whole way with him in those remarks. We have had associations with Hong Kong for a very long time. It is Her Majesty's Government's view that so far as these responsibilities rest upon the Government they should be carried out.
§ LORD BURNTWOODMy Lords, is the Question put by my noble friend not bound up with the future action to be taken in connection with the treaty with China regarding Hong Kong itself and the leased Territories separately? Should not any answer to my noble friend's Question be related to those matters?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I do not think so, because the troops which arc deployed in Hong Kong at the moment, and which are part of the garrison, are there as a result of the situation as it is at present.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether the presence in Hong Kong of a very large number of undisciplined Chinese refugees may not be a factor in the security situation?