§ 2.47 p.m.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether NATO forces if deprived of U.S.A. forces could be considered adequate to deal with an emergency.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN)My Lords, this is a hypothetical Question, and I venture to suggest that the contingency it appears to postulate—namely, the complete withdrawal of 681 United States military support from NATO—is most improbable.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, why does the noble Marquess speak of the Question as hypothetical? Is he aware that there is considerable controversy in the United States about whether American Forces should be retained in Europe, and that there is much uncertainty about the issue? In view of the undoubted weakness of our conventional forces—I am speaking of the NATO forces in Europe—and in particular the contracting out of the French forces, not only troops on the ground but the naval forces in the Mediterranean, what is to happen in the event of an emergency? Can we rely on our conventional forces associated with NATO? Are we not largely dependent upon the conventional assistance furnished by the United States; and if the Senate should change its mind on the subject—and it almost changed its mind the other day—would it not be a very serious situation for us?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, I think that this is a hypothetical question because the Administration of the United States have repeatedly said, and very recently, that they have no intention of reducing their own force levels in Europe, except possibly in the context of M.B.F.R.'s, which is perhaps a slightly different matter. Indeed, my Lords, the level of United States forces in Europe in 1971 has been slightly above that of the previous year. I really think that the noble Lord is unnecessarily worried.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, would not the noble Marquess agree that the old question of the defence of Western Europe inside the Atlantic Alliance is a very important and perhaps even a rather urgent question which might well form the subject of an early debate in your Lordships' House?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, is the noble Marquess aware that his answers have really been most unsatisfactory? My noble friend has put a Question which I should have thought is well within the realms of contingency planning, for which all Government and mili 682 tary establishments are responsible. The question is: what is to happen should there be a reduction of American forces in Europe? Will what is left be sufficient to ensure the security of Western Europe? I do not think that that is a hypothetical question; it is one of contingency planning. It would be interesting to noble Lords on this side to know whether Her Majesty's Government have given the matter deep and mature consideration.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I can certainly assure the House that the question of any sort of reduction from the American side is a matter of concern to Her Majesty's Government. All that I was trying to do was to inform the House that there is no indication of this happening at the present time. Indeed, the American Government themselves have taken great pains to assure their colleagues in NATO that this is not likely to happen. I can understand the noble Lord's fears; and these are things which we are considering. I said that it was hypothetical because there seems to be no likelihood of the American Government reducing their forces.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, would the noble Marquess agree that the defence of Western Europe is entirely bound up with NATO and that the European Community has nothing at all to do with the defence of the West?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I think that we are getting slightly away from the point of the original Question.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, may I bring the matter back to the original point? Would the noble Marquess assure the House that the United States Government have assured Her Majesty's Government and other Governments in NATO that there is unlikely to be any reduction of American forces in Europe in the future? Or is this coupled with any particular time scale?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I could not give noble Lords a precise answer to that question without notice. I think I should be right in saying that the Americans have stated that they have no intention in the foreseeable future—I cannot say "in the future" of reducing their forces in Europe except 683 within the concept of M.B.F.R. which is something that we shall be considering.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, when the noble Marquess suggests that I ought not to be worried about a matter of this sort, can he understand that I am not worried for myself? At my time of life there is no need to worry. Is he aware that I am concerned about the future security of Europe and of the United Kingdom? And is he further aware that in recent speeches made in the Continent of Europe by people associated with the French the statement has been made that there is no keen interest in the European countries in the West about defence matters? In view of the French situation, is this not a matter which is far from hypothetical and one which should be of concern to every Member of your Lordships' House?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I am sure that every Member of this House, and indeed of the Government, is concerned about the defence of Europe. I did not wish to suggest that the noble Lord was not concerned, for I am certain that he is; but his question as phrased implied that any form of American withdrawal would be considered a total withdrawal. I was suggesting that that was hypothetical.
§ LORD ST. HELENSMy Lords, is the noble Marquess aware that this matter has been debated exhaustively both in the NATO Parliamentary Assembly and recently in the Western European Parliamentary Assembly, and that all the nations concerned are aware of the problem? Is the noble Marquess further aware that earlier this year, in the autumn, at the NATO assembly in Ontario, Canada, an amendment was put forward to suggest the withdrawal of American forces from Europe and that it was voted against by all the American senators and representatives present?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I can confirm that what he has said is true.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, apart from what his noble friend has just said, is the noble Marquess aware that by going into the European Common Market we are going to be in a most embarrassing position since we are one of the fore 684 runners in regard to NATO? If this action is taken and we go into Europe we are going to be in a very difficult position.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, we have debated the Common Market and, doubtless. we shall again debate the Common Market. We have debated general defence policy, and we shall be debating it again quite soon. I believe that we should not turn Question and Answer into a mini-debate. I would urge your Lordships to pass on.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess, in view of his statement that the Question is hypothetical, whether he is aware that the State Department in America yesterday said that the promise of continued arms to Europe was limited to one year? Would it not be much better for Her Majesty's Government to seek a reduction of forces on both sides through the proposed European Security Conference?
EARL. JELLICOEMy Lords, I apologise for again intervening, but I would urge your Lordships that it is time to pass on to another Question. It is my understanding that it was the general feeling of the House as expressed in a recent debate on procedure that your Lordships did not wish to turn Question Time into a mini-debate. I feel that there is a real danger of our doing so.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, was not my first question definitely in order—in commenting upon and in questioning what the noble Marquess said?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, I do not think I can say anything more than I have already said. The Americans have given an assurance that they do not intend to reduce their forces in Europe except in the context of the M.B.F.R., which the noble Lord mentioned and which is something which is being pursued.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, obviously I wish to support the noble Earl the Leader of the House, but, with the greatest respect I would suggest that if replies are not directly bearing on particular questions it is likely that noble Lords will wish to pursue them. I would only say that I hope we shall have a debate quite soon on the Defence White 685 Paper. We managed it fairly early last Session, and there are clearly a number of matters that we must discuss.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl the leader of the House whether he was trying to suggest to the House that we should avoid turning Question Time into mini-debates?—for on that the House will surely support him.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, and to the noble Lord the Leader of the Liberal Opposition. I have noted what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and I think it would be the intention of my noble friend the Secretary of State for Defence to arrange, if the usual channels so desire, an early debate on defence matters as soon as the Defence White Paper is published. Of course, if any noble Lord wishes to put down a specific Motion before then we can consider a specific debate before that time.