§ 2.39 p.m.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consider that the method of packing a recently marketed detergent constitutes a danger to children, as the container front is labelled in large print "Sunlight Lemon Liquid With Real Lemon Juice" with a picture of a juicy lemon, whereas "washing up liquid" is only mentioned in small print on the back of the container.]
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the manufacturers have now agreed to add the words "For Washing Up" on the front of the container. There is also a safety first warning that the pack should be kept out of reach of children.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that highly satisfactory Answer to my very simple, innocent and non-political Question, but I should like to ask him this further question. What is to happen about the stocks of this detergent which are already on show on the shelves of supermarkets and in shops? Is the word "detergent" 263 going to be stamped upon those packages?—because if not the possibility of some child getting hold of an unmarked package still remains.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I understand that the new packs will be on sale in the shops early in the New Year. We believe that, following representations made by my Department, the manufacturers have acted responsibly in this instance in supplementing the wording on the container in the way I have indicated. Although we have sympathy with the noble Lord's Question, we have no evidence so far that children have in fact been taking this liquid. We think, therefore, that the action which has been taken and agreed upon with the manufacturers is quite satisfactory.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, this type of detergent is on the market at the moment, but I should like to ask the noble Lard what Department is informed of any new detergents that are introduced and which the ordinary customer going into a store and seeing on the shelves might buy without fully appreciating what are the contents of the pack? What notice is given by any particular Department, drawing the attention of the public to danger or otherwise in the use of these products?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has a responsibility under the Consumer Protection legislation and it is customary for manufacturers to notify my Department of the contents and formulation of new products of this sort. We agree that it is undesirable to increase the risk to children of taking harmful substances and that the labelling should not be in a manner which might encourage them to do so. For that reason my Department made representations to the manufacturers, and we believe they reacted responsibly.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, surely it would be quite simple without all these complications, for the Government to require retailers to label the stocks that they already hold "Not for drinking" in very large letters?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMYes, my Lords, that is included on this particular 264 pack. There is a safety warning covering that point printed on the reverse of the pack.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, are we not in fact particularly concerned with protecting the child who cannot read? Will not a small child who cannot read be attracted to this packet of toxic material if it has the picture of a nice juicy lemon on the outside?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, it has a picture of a juicy lemon, but immediately below the juicy lemon there is depicted a foaming sink filled with washing up.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, the noble Lord said that he had no evidence that children had been taking this product. If he had such evidence, would he be prepared to take more drastic action now? And is he content to wait until the evidence is forthcoming?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, your Lordships may be interested to know how I reached this conclusion. I have been looking into the matter in the last day or two since the noble Lord's Question has been down. There is an organisation known as the Poisons Information Service. This receives details of all new products of this sort and is equipped to answer queries from doctors and hospitals when children or adults—but particularly children—have taken a particular substance which may be harmful. I find that there have been no requests from doctors, from parents or from hospitals concerning this particular product, nor are we aware of any complaints from parents, made either direct to my Department or through the safety organisations.
§ LORD AUCKLANDMy Lords, arising from my noble friend's Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that in a number of cases lemonade has been sold in bottles similar to those which contain poisonous substances such as bleach? Is my noble friend satisfied that the regulations to counteract this practice are adequate?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, that goes rather wider than the Question. But I agree that the shape of the container, where it is kept in the home and the pictorial quality of the labelling, are 265 extremely important factors where young children are concerned. One cannot rely entirely on printed warnings, as the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, said, because younger children are, of course, unable to read them.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, with great respect, I cannot understand that the Minister has answered the question asked by my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition, as to whether he is awaiting a disaster before taking more drastic action?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, we do not consider there is any risk of disaster here. The contents have been analysed, and I understand it would be necessary for a child to drink approximately two fluid ounces of this extremely unpleasant tasting liquid—it tastes strongly of soap rather than of lemon—before he was sick.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARKMy Lords, as one who was given by one of his clergy not this but a similar detergent instead of lemonade, perhaps with ulterior motive, and having fallen down as though dead on the floor, will the noble Lord believe that I am one member of your Lordships' House who feels very strongly in this matter and hopes that serious consideration will be given to this question.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, it is not for me to speculate on the motives of those offering drinks to the right reverend Prelate, but I can assure him that we treat these cases seriously. Action has been taken here. At the same time we must retain some perspective. The liquid itself is a natural soap product. It would require the drinking of a considerable amount before a child was upset, and even then the child would not be seriously harmed. I think the action taken here, and the continued vigilance of my Department, is adequate.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, I do not want to nag the noble Lord because the tone of his answers has been so helpful. But here is a picture of the container, which says in very large type "Sunlight lemon liquid", and then a very large juicy lemon, and the only other words on the front are "with real lemon juice". Is the noble Lord aware, when 266 he says that two ounces would be necessary to cause any harm, that two fluid ounces is about the quantity of ordinary condensed lemon squash which the housewife or child puts into the glass before filling it with water? My final question to the noble Lord, who has been so helpful, is this: Can something be done to require shopkeepers to stamp the words "detergent" or "not for drinking" on the stocks already on their shelves?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, we have considered this, but have concluded that the manufacturers' undertaking to alter the pack for all further supplies which will be in the shops in the New Year is appropriate in the circumstances.
§ LORD FOOTMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that when, in a short time, we come to consider the Rhodesian "detergent packet" it would be appropriate to take a close look at what is described in the Question as "the small print on the back of the container"? Would the noble Lord also agree that in this case, in substitution for his words "for washing up", we might put "for white-washing up"?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I have the rare opportunity of answering all the Questions in your Lordships' House to-day. I know noble Lords are looking forward to the Rhodesian debate, and I think we should pass on to the next Question.