§ 12.5 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the investment policy pursued by the Crown Agents for Overseas Governments and Administrations is calculated to render best assistance to the economy of this country.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN)My Lords, the Crown Agents invest funds on behalf of their overseas principals, who are mainly independent Government and other public bodies. They do this on the instructions and authority of their principals and the British Government do not intervene in these operations.
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, I think that I should say that I have no team co-ordination with the Guardian although I am aware that some of the staff were not uninterested in this subject. May I ask the noble Marquess whether I understood him to say that although the Crown Agents invest very large sums of money—and it is public money—the Government have no routine discussions on investment policy and give no approval to investments, and certainly have no power to direct the Crown Agents in any way?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, that is quite correct. The Crown Agents are entirely responsible to their own principals in these matters and are 1258 not responsible to the British Government.
§ LORD PEDDIEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess whether or not in the initial stages the Crown Agents are appointed by Her Majesty's Government? May I also ask whether Her Majesty's Government can confirm or deny that executives of the Crown Agents hold, directly or through nominees, shares in companies promoted by Crown Agents' funds?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, it is certainly true that the Crown Agents are appointed by Her Majesty's Government. I think that I should need notice of the second supplementary question. Perhaps I may write to the noble Lord on it.
§ BARONESS WHITEMy Lords, I sup-post that we have all read the Guardian this morning; and I am sure that the noble Marquess will appreciate that we should wish to have some comment from Her Majesty's Government about the allegations mentioned by my noble friend, which are very disquieting.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, my attention has been drawn to the article in the Guardian this morning although I must confess that I have not yet had time to read it closely. I have no reason to suspect that it is substantially inaccurate but on behalf of my right honourable friend I would appreciate time in which to consider the matter.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, in view of the uncertainties which may have been created abroad, as well as in this country, could not the noble Marquess promise that there will be an investigation and that we shall have a report as soon as possible?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I shall certainly undertake to convey to my right honourable friend the feelings of the noble Baroness, and indeed of the House, in this matter.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, in view of the statement by the noble Marquess that in his view the Guardian article is probably accurate, can he answer two questions? First, to whom are 1259 the Crown Agents responsible? Secondly, are the developing countries aware that their money is being used to benefit London property owners, bankers and other private enterprises enabling, in the words of the Guardian, individuals to build up personal fortunes?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's first question is, as I hope I made clear in my original Answer, that the Crown Agents are responsible to their principals, the Governments concerned or whoever they may be, in this matter. So far as the noble Lord's second question is concerned, this is a matter for the Crown Agents' principals. I should have thought that they have every right to ask the Agents how they are investing their money and in what activities they are indulging. I think that I cannot say more than that. This is something that the principals are perfectly entitled to find out from the Crown Agents.
§ LORD FLETCHERMy Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess this question? When he has had the opportunity to read the article published in to-day's Guardian he will observe that the Crown Agent is quoted as saying that he has some kind of responsibility to the Foreign Secretary. The degree of that responsibility is not obvious, but it seems that there is some kind of responsibility for which, presumably, the noble Marquess's right honourable friend is responsible to Parliament. Would the noble Marquess bear in mind that it would be very disquieting if it were the fact, as is suggested, that in pursuing the investment policies which the Crown Agents are following, they are not supposed to have any regard to the best interests of the economy of this country?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I take the noble Lord's point and I will certainly pass it on to my right honourable friend.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, would the noble Marquess say whether or not Crown Agents, as Crown Agents, enjoy any legal immunity under the Crown?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I am afraid that, without notice, I cannot answer that question.
§ LORD THORNEYCROFTMy Lords, may I put it to the noble Marquess, before we pursue the hunting of the Crown Agents too far, that we might bear in mind that for many years they have probably done a remarkably good job of work and that we might possibly end up in a much worse position if we start changing everything too rapidly without thinking very carefully about it.
§ LORD PEDDIEMy Lords, my question relates to existing circumstances. What immediate steps would be taken by Her Majesty's Government if the disquiet which could be generated arising out of recent discussions involved a substantial and immediate withdrawal of funds on the part of the principals who are now associated with the Crown Agents?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I do not want to dodge that question; but I think that it really is a matter for the Treasury. I will undertake to pass all these questions to my right honourable friend. I hope that I have satisfied the House at any rate that in these matters the Crown Agents are basically responsible to their principals, with whom they have to deal.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, there is some misunderstanding about the responsibility here. Who appoints these people in the first place? And who has the power to dismiss them? On what basis are they appointed? And on what basis would they be dismissed if the occasion arose?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, the Crown Agents are appointed by Her Majesty's Government.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask one more question? Is the Minister aware that there is a document published by the Crown Agents which lists their investments. Although this document is secret, I have had a copy. May I ask the Minister why, if these are public funds, it should not be publicly announced where these investments are placed?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, the noble Lord has been more fortunate than I. I have not seen a copy of this document, I am afraid.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, when the noble Marquess has had time to read the article, I think he will find that it is not a Treasury responsibility but that the officials who are there now were appointed by the Minister of Overseas Development.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, while no one wants to cast aspersions on the Crown Agents—I have had some experience of the excellent work done by them in South-East Asia—may I ask that, when public money is involved, the Government will try in future to see that the greatest possible information is given to both Houses of Parliament?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I think that I can undertake to accede to the noble Lord's request.
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, would not the noble Marquess agree that it is very important not in any way to impugn the integrity of the Crown Agents, and that the sooner these points are announced in public the better?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I quite agree with my noble friend.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, I feel that we have had a good hunt on this subject, and perhaps the noble Earl, Lord Arran, may now be allowed to get into the act.