LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the strong and growing local objections to the moving of the Gunproofing Establishment from Foulness to West Freugh in Wigtownshire; and to ask them whether, in view of the damage which will certainly be caused to agriculture, tourism and conditions of civilised living, they will either reconsider their decision or permit a public inquiry to be held.]
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are aware of objections in some quarters locally to the proposed move of part of the Proof and Experimental Establishment from Shoeburyness to West Freugh. On the other hand, as was stated in another place on July 15, a number of local interests, including the South-West Scotland Tourist Association, are in favour, and the Wigtownshire County Council has accepted the proposal. Most of the additional land required can continue to be farmed under lease. The proposal will be considered by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland who will decide whether a public inquiry should be held.
LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTONMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, which is not quite so disappointing as I had anticipated it 1148 might be, may I ask whether he is aware of the views of the local branch of the National Farmers' Union? And is he further aware that not only does it appear that 2,000 acres of excellent dairy farming land are liable to be lost, or nearly lost, if the scheme goes forward, but also that stock farming will be extremely hazardous in the coastal area in front of the guns? Further, has my noble friend heard the sad story of the two sows who aborted during test firing last month?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think that in whatever quarter of the House a noble Lord may sit he would like my right honourable friend to send our deepest sympathy to the two sows who suffered this tragic loss. If this move comes about, I do not think that my noble friend need feel that the 2,000 acres he referred to will be sterilised; they will continue to be farmed. But in any event this is something that has to be looked into by my right honourable friend.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, have alternative sites been considered—for instance, the vast stretches of uncultivatable moorland on the Lancashire/Yorkshire borders?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think it is necessary to have a coastal area in which to fire these shells. We have looked at every conceivable site, I would assure the noble Baroness, and there are overwhelming objections to every one. The truth is that if we are going to have an Army and if we are going to have guns, we must test them and fire them somewhere.
§ LORD ALPORTMy Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that if the people in Wigtownshire would prefer to have the Third London Airport, we in Essex would be quite happy to keep the Shoeburyness Proof and Experimental Establishment where it is at present?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am glad that my noble friend would find it convenient to travel from West Freugh.
§ LORD BALERNOMy Lords, are the Government aware that the creamery at Stranraer is one of the biggest in Europe, if not the biggest, and that it is at present short of milk? Is my noble friend aware that if the range goes to 1149 where it is proposed it will almost certainly put the local cows off their milk and there will be less milk coming into the creamery? In those circumstances, would he ask his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland whether proper compensation will be made through the Scottish Milk Marketing Board in this respect?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, while not accepting that any of these dreadful things are likely to occur, I will certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend to what the noble Lord has said.
§ LORD HOYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that any proposal of this kind causes considerable feeling in the locality? In addition to the farming interests and many others, is the noble Lord aware that some concern has been expressed by medical opinion in that area with regard to the services that might be affected? Would it not be advisable, if we all want it to be successful, to satisfy local opinion? Would not a public inquiry prove beyond peradventure that the new siting is correct?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, this is a matter for my right honourable friend, but perhaps I might say that support for the proposals has come from quite a number of people: the Stranraer Town Council, the Stranraer and District Chamber of Trade, the Wigtownshire Trades Council, the Wigtownshire County Council and the Wigtownshire trade unions, who feel it should be supported since it will bring 300 additional jobs into the area. So this is not all one-way traffic, by any means.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, would my noble friend enlarge on the statement that every site has been investigated and say whether Loch Eriboll, on the North coast of Scotland, has been investigated? Secondly, can he say what will be the cost of demolishing the buildings and of their replacement elsewhere if the range is taken to West Freugh?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I do not know where the first place is; but if it was at all likely to be suitable it has been investigated. With regard to the second question which the noble 1150 Earl asked, the cost of moving from Shoeburyness will be in the region of £20 million.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, will it require another £20 million to demolish the houses at West Freugh and rebuild them elsewhere?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, perhaps the noble Earl, when we return next Session, will give me notice of that question.
LORD LEATHER LANDMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the fact that although Southend has had the Foulness experimental establishment near to it for scores of years, yet its agriculture is prospering, its tourists are as numerous as ever and the standard of civilised living enjoyed by the people there is one of the highest in the country?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I will suggest to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland that if he deems a public inquiry necessary the noble Lord should be asked to attend.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, if the inquiry is in the North of Scotland with all expenses paid, my services are at his disposal.
LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTONMy Lords, may I finally ask my noble friend whether he is aware that local opinion will be quite satisfied if a public inquiry is held? So far as I am aware, that is all that local opinion wants at present.