§ 3.15 p.m.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government to what extent the recent settlement of the Ford workers' pay claim is in accordance with Her Majesty's Government's policy of stabilising prices and de-escalating wage claims.]
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)My Lords, the Government's policy, which has been made clear to employers and unions, is to bring about a reduction in the present high level of wage settlements. It does not rely on detailed criteria not on a percentage limit within which all settlements are expected to fall, as they will be affected by the special circumstances of each case. The Government, however, deprecate settlements which do not contribute to this policy, or which carry forward the present high rate of settlements into future years.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord two questions, one general and one particular? May I ask, first, for how much longer Her Majesty's Government can pretend that the posture they are adopting with regard to prices and incomes is a credible posture in the light of what is happening? Secondly, is the noble Lord not a little ashamed of the treatment which Her Majesty's Government forced upon some of the most useful, reliable and kindly people in our community, namely, the postmen, in the light of what has happened since?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the noble Lord asks me how much longer Her Majesty's Government can pretend that this posture is credible, but the point is that a settlement of the nature 780 of the Ford settlement is a peak settlement. A great many settlements are going on at the present time which are within the policy of the Government. These are not reported because they are not news, but the noble Lord will be aware that there are methods by which the Government get to know of things, and the Government are not dissatisfied with the way in which their policy is going.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say what is the context in which high salaries can be allowed, such as has been the policy of the Government, and what salary structure the Government deprecate? It seems that on one side high-ranking military officers, higher civil servants and others get huge increases, agreed to by the Government, but when the Ford workers and others, such as the dustmen and the postmen, ask for an increase it is deprecated—
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, will the Minister inform the House what is the salary level that is accepted by the Government?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am sure the noble Lord appreciates that there are two areas, one in which the Government have a special responsibility in regard to wage settlements, and the other which is the area of free negotiation. What the noble Lord does not realise, I think, is what I have already said: that the main body of negotiations that take place on the free side are now coming into line with the settlements that have been made in the Post Office and other settlements of that kind, and that the Ford settlement is an exceptional case.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he does not think it possible that the increase in new money supply mentioned in the Budget Statement, estimated at four times as much as the increase in annual production, may be an encouragement to employers to make these inflationary wage settlements?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, that might or might not be so; but the Government's policy on this matter is known, 781 and it must be apparent to all employers, and indeed employees, that if they arrange between themselves settlements which are excessive this will in the long run do damage to themselves as well as to the country.
§ LORD ROBBINSMy Lords, I wondered whether the noble Lord could give the House some indication of any published statistics which would bear out the rather sanguine pronouncement which he made in answer to the original Question?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNNo, my Lords, I cannot do that. I will inquire how far the returns that are sent to the Government by the C.B.I. bear out exactly what I say, and I will, if I may, write to the noble Lord.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, with regard to the question asked by the noble Lord opposite, which seemed to be a class-conscious question—I think it was, and I think it deliberately was—is it not true that the ordinary trade unionist asks for and generally gets a rise every year, whereas top civil servants, Ministers, Members of Parliament and other men in the higher ranks of industry generally get rises every three or four years?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the noble Lord has asked me a question on which I am not expert, but of course conditions vary from employment to employment. In some cases the rises are phased over a period of years and in some they are negotiated from year to year.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that as the Ford company have arrived at a settlement which is commercially viable so far as the company are concerned, and as the Party opposite are concerned with commercial viability, they have no right to say anything about the Ford settlement at all? And with regard to the suggestion about the Post Office settlement, is it not a fact that there is at this moment no settlement?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, whether the particular settlement negotiated in Ford's is viable or not will be shown by what happens in the future. No doubt Ford's, in reaching the settlement, did so on a balance of advantage and disadvantage. It does not follow that it is a settle 782 ment did so on a balance of advantage and disadvantage. It does not follow that it is a settlement which they would themselves have chosen had they been able to negotiate on a basis of complete equality in this matter.
§ LORD PARGITERBut surely, my Lords, the basis of equality must be on the availability of labour to withhold their labour or the availability of capital to pay what labour asks.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the basis of equality here depends very much on the position of the firm at the time. If the position of the firm is under pressure, if there is a shortage of liquidity, if they are under pressure to maintain their markets overseas or to meet a particular contract, then those pressures may modify that equality.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, is that not an indictment of the capitalist structure?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to clarify the original Answer? Do I gather that if the present disparity between public sector settlements and private sector settlements continues Her Majesty's Government are not disposed to take any further control at all?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, that is obviously a hypothetical question. What Her Majesty's Government hope for, and indeed expect, is that due note will be taken by all concerned of the policy of the Government, which is clearly in the interests of the country as a whole, and that in formulating their wage demands and reaching their wage settlements employers and employees will have regard to the need to bring down the rate of settlements if we are not going to have inflation of a very serious nature.
§ LORD FERRIERMy Lords, is it not possible that recent levels of wage settlements in the Ford company have contributed to that company's decision to cease expanding their operations in this country?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, that is a matter of speculation, for which, I am afraid, Her Majesty's Government are not responsible.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, while not wishing to prolong questions indefinitely, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will take careful note of what the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, has said? Is he aware that details of many wage settlements are published in the Ministry of Labour Gazette? Since he has made a very serious, and apparently justified, statement on figures, could he make those figures available to the House very soon, if we put down a Private Notice Question or another Question? May I further ask, arising out of my noble friend's question, whether if these settlements in the private sector continue at the present rate—and they are continuing at that rate—Her Majesty's Government intend to urge the public sector to increase wage rates there, or will they maintain the policy referred to by the Prime Minister of continuing to squeeze the public sector?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, with regard to the first half of the question, of course I will see how we can meet the wishes of the noble Lord and the House. With regard to the second half of the question, I think the noble Lord is under a misapprehension. As I said before, everyone always looks at the higher settlements and is apt to treat them as the norm. All I am saying is that they are not the norm and that the Government are not dissatisfied with the way their policy is going at the present time.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, the noble Lord has said that Her Majesty's Government deprecate the high settlements which have been offered recently. Where they are too high no doubt we would agree with him. Will he say, which he has not yet said, whether he deprecates the particular wage rise referred to in the Question?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I think I have said enough to make it clear that this was not in line with Her Majesty's Government's policy. It was a settlement which, in terms both of the immediate settlement and of the fact that it was promising further high settlements in the future, was outside the terms of Her Majesty's Government's policy.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I do not wish to come between the noble Lord and your Lordships' House, but I think that following the supplementary your Lordships may wish to move on to other business. I do not wish in any way to curtail questioning on a matter which touches matters of vital importance to the health and prosperity of our nation, but this is not really one which is susceptible to easy question and answer. We can always debate it; the Opposition have a couple of days at their disposal quite shortly.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether the size of an agreement or an award is the only criterion by which its value is judged? For the first time for a number of years there is now a guarantee of peace for two years in the Ford works. Is that of no value when you are assessing the amount; and can you come to a decision on the amount to be paid without having a look at all the circumstances which surround the negotiation, including in that particular plant a nine and a half weeks' strike?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord—I may say that I very often do. Where an agreement is going to contribute to stability in the future, that is clearly of great value, and it is one of the circumstances that I referred to when I said that settlements will be affected by special circumstances in each case. But in saying that, I do not mean to say that the Government were happy about the whole of the arrangement. They were happy about the prospect of stability in the industry.