CENSUS FORM AND THE CHRONICALLY SICK (Hansard, 7 April 1971)

§ BARONESS MASHAM or ILTON
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)
My Lords, the Census form is not an appropriate means to implement the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, as the necessary information is too detailed, and in any case the Census returns are confidential.

§ BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTON
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. May I ask him two supplementary questions? First, does his Answer mean that the Government themselves are not really interested in knowing the numbers of the disabled? Secondly, would whichever Party is in power in the next ten years consider having a parallel, so that this opportunity might not be missed again of getting information needed to implement Section 1 of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, I cannot agree that the Government are not interested in knowing the numbers concerned. The Office of Population Censuses and Surveys has carried out a national survey of the handicapped and 316 their Report will be published in a few weeks' time. So far as the second supplementary question of the noble Baroness is concerned, I am sure that if she drew the attention of successive Governments to this matter over the next ten years, it would be considered.

§ BARONESS SEROTA
My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the Government intend to send out to local authorities in the near future a further circular about the implementation of this part of the Act?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, we expect to be giving guidance in the autumn to local authorities about the carrying out of local surveys.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to elaborate on this? Is he aware that the Act cannot become effective unless the Government compile some list, sonic register—what ever the Government like to call it? Do his answers mean that they are not going to take any effective action until next autumn, which will be nearly a year after the Act was put on the Statute Book?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, we went into this aspect very thoroughly at the time when the Bill was going through this House. An Amendment, which I think was in the name of a noble Lord opposite, that a detailed register should he made was withdrawn because, on the advice of the Government and the then Opposition, it was felt to be wasteful of local authority resources. But local authorities will be carrying out local surveys; and as I say, we expect to give them further guidance in the autumn when we have the result of the survey which has already been carried out by the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys.

§ LORD BLYTON
My Lords, does not the noble Lord think that, instead of paying lip service to the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, the Government ought to provide some money so that local authorities can implement the content of the Act?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, we have already provided extra money for this purpose in the rate-support grant given to local authorities.

§ BARONESS SEROTA
My Lords, may. I ask the noble Lord what is the cause of the delay? Why not before the autumn?

§ LORD ABERDARE
As I have explained, my Lords, we are waiting for the survey of the Office of Population and Surveys.

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, the Minister has indicated that money has been made available to the local authorities. Is he satisfied that they have allocated it for use for this purpose?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, it is too early to say. The money has been allocated only recently, for the year 1971–72.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord would consider communicating with doctors in certain areas and asking if they will give a list of the disabled persons on their lists?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, I will certainly take note of what the noble Baroness says.

§ LORD SELSDON
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Government have taken any steps to collect information from charitable organisations and voluntary bodies, and whether he is aware that this information could be of great value in encouraging manufacturers to make products more suitable for the physically handicapped and the disabled?

§ Lord ABERDARE
My Lords, I think that that supplementary question goes rather wide of the original Question. Perhaps the noble Lord would like to raise the matter during our debate this afternoon.

§ LORD STRABOLGI
My Lords, may I ask the Government why, if the information in the Census is supposed to he confidential, it is possible for the authorities to sell to outside applicants some of the data collected?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, the only information in the Census that is confidential is information about individual persons. The only information available to outside persons is statistics which do not in any way affect individual people.

§ LORD PLATT
My Lords, will the noble Lord remind me? Was there anything at all in this Act which said that local authorities were to wait for this survey before they made their own rolls of disabled people? There seems to me to be a long delay which is worrying a great many people

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Platt, clearly knows, the Act requires local authorities, when this particular section comes into force, to satisfy themselves as to the extent of the problem in their area. This they will be actively doing. But I would remind the noble Lord that the Social Services Act has only just come into effect, and local authorities are busy reorganising their social services departments. I expect we shall find that they will make rapid progress when that has been done.

§ LORD SANDYS
My Lords, I do not wish unnecessarily to prolong this series of supplementary questions, but may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware of replies given on February 23 by his right honourable friend to a series of Questions put that day on the working of the Act? Is he aware that his right honourable friend said that if any valuable research is being conducted the results of which are not being used, he should be informed? Would not the noble Lord agree that the Census would form a basis of valuable research?

§ LORD ABERDARE
Certainly, my Lords, if there is anything in the Census returns which is of value. There is one question in the returns which bears slightly on the point of disablement; a question relating to the giving of reasons for unemployment. Certainly any information of this sort which is of value will be used.

§ LORD LEATHERLAND
My Lords, I ask a question not of a nagging nature but one designed to be helpful. Is the noble Lord aware that there is considerable disappointment at the slow take-off of this scheme, and will his Department write to all local authorities asking the simple question: what are you doing to put this Act into operation?

§ LORD ABERDARE
My Lords, I am aware of the concern that has been expressed, especially after what has been 319 said to-day. I cannot undertake to ask local authorities at this moment because, as I say, they are reorganising their social service departments; but in due course the noble Lord's question may prove to have been a valid and useful one.