§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend, as the last Government did, that public expenditure on general conservation schemes should rise to £3 million a year by the financial year 1973–74.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD)My Lords, I would refer the noble Lord to the Answer I gave him on Tuesday about grant for general conservation schemes. Until Her Majesty's Government have come to a conclusion about the introduction of such a grant, it is not possible to say what public expenditure would arise from it by 1973–74.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, if the diagnosticians are united on the type of anæmia inflicting the patient, and if the therapeuticians are unanimous in saying that transfusions are the only thing that will save the patient's life, what sort of medical superintendent is it who comes along at the last moment and says, "Let us do without the transfusions and see if the patient survives"?
§ LORD SANDFORDBut they do not, my Lords.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, I took the noble Lord's Answer to mean that the £3 million of public money which the last Government intended to build up in three years at an annual rate is not now to be built up in three years.
§ LORD SANDFORDNo, my Lords, the second diagnostician has yet to make up his mind as to the remedy.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, can the Minister indicate when the diagnostician will make up his mind?
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I am looking forward to answering the next Question on the Order Paper and going a little further into that point.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to set up pilot general conservation schemes in Bath, Chester, Chichester and York, and how the discussions which were announced by Lord Kennet on May 20, 1970, with the local authorities in those places, are proceeding.]
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, discussions with local authorities concerned in these four cities about the possibility of the Government joining in such projects are continuing. I have visited and had discussions to that end in each of these four cities.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, are the authorities in the four cities pleased or disappointed to find that they are not to get the 50 per cent. Exchequer grant in advance of legislation which the late Government intended to give them?
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, they realise that at the moment they have a larger challenge to meet than they first anticipated, but this has not deterred them from proceeding with a lot of work which was already in hand under the encouragement of the noble Lord and is still going forward under the encouragement of this noble Lord.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, during his discussions at York, did the noble Lord give any indication at all that the Government were prepared to make some contribution to these vast changes that are so necessary, if we want to keep the city in the beautiful form in which it is to-day, instead of letting it get completely commercialised and turned inside out?
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I reminded the Corporation of the City of York of the large range of grants which were available to them bearing on the question of the conservation of their ancient city, and I told them of a few additional possibilities which they had not at that time explored. I am glad to say that things are now moving ahead in York.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, does the noble Lord really imagine that the City Council of York needed to be reminded by him of the grants that are available to them, especially after the prolonged and detailed report of the work carried out by the noble Viscount, Lord Esher, which contained a substantial chapter precisely on this point and was submitted to them two years ago?
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, we are perhaps going a little too far for answering two Questions, but I may say that I had a useful discussion with the noble Viscount, Lord Esher, and I did not get the impression that my visit to York was a complete waste of time.