§ 2.45 p.m.
BARONESS WOOTTONOF ABINGERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether instruction in the use of firearms is now given in any borstal or other penal institution in the course of military training; and if not when was it discontinued and at what institution was such instruction most recently given.]
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, instruction in the use of firearms is given at two borstals in England and one in Scotland where Army Cadet Force units are run on a voluntary basis as a leisure time activity for selected trainees. This practice is being reviewed.
BARONESS WOOTTONOF ABINGERMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for his Answer, may I ask whether he will give us a categorical assurance that the result of this review will be that no instruction in the use of firearms is given in any penal institution, in view of the likelihood that these places contain persons convicted of crimes of violence?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the noble Baroness will herself be able to take part in the review. The Advisory Council on the Penal System, as she will know, is already undertaking a comprehensive review of the treatment of young offenders. The Home Secretary proposes to invite the Council to look specifically at this question of training in the use of firearms, as part of their review.
BARONESS WOOTTONOF ABINGERMy Lords, is the Minister not aware that the Advisory Council moves slowly, and will no doubt produce a report on this topic of the treatment of young offenders in the course of the next two years, during which time, if military training is being given in these institutions, quite a number of young men will have become accomplished in the use of firearms? Must he wait for the Advisory Council?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMI do not think so, my Lords. If the noble Baroness feels that the matter is of such urgency as to demand special treatment, it will be quite open to her, or any other member of the Advisory Council, to suggest that the Council should make an interim report on the subject; as, for example, it did on detention centres for women in recommending their closure.
926 Perhaps I may add this comment. The Home Secretary feels that this is a subject which requires careful review. The Army Cadet Force training has been regarded in the past in these three borstal institutions as a useful means of occupying selected boys in a disciplined and orderly activity. Many of them are of an age when they might have been receiving Army cadet training at school or university. The inmates themselves have been selected by age, by character and by nature of their offence, so that they are suitable for Army Cadet Force training. It is therefore an issue which requires some thought, and it seems that the Advisory Council is the correct body to give it.
BARONESS WOOTTONOF ABINGERMy Lords, is the Minister not aware that this is a matter of very great urgency, and that during the time when an interim report is being produced a number of young people will be trained in the use of firearms? May I ask the Minister whether this is part of the Government's policy that citizens should behave responsibly, and that we should rely upon that in relation to young men in borstal institutions?
§ LORD CHORLEYMy Lords, would it not be possible, while the Committee is preparing its report, to suspend this training for the time being?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMNo, my Lords; it would not be right to prejudge the issue in that way.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, will the noble Lord ask his honourable friend to have another look at this matter? Surely it is the consensus of this House, and of the country as a whole, that it is wrong to be training men incarcerated in prison in the use of firearms. Is this not something which the Home Secretary should consider, instead of waiting a considerable period of time before the appropriate Committee is able to investigate the matter?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMNo, my Lords. There need be no wait. The Committee is already sitting and considering the treatment of young offenders. A reference to the Committee will be made very quickly, and there need be no delay.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, can the noble Lord also say what sort of firearms these youngsters are being trained in? Are they being trained in the use of the ordinary rifle or in automatic weapons? If it is automatic weapons, I should have thought that the fears expressed on this side of the House had some merit, and that the Government should do something about this matter.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, my understanding is that at the two institutions in England and Wales, under supervision by qualified Army instructors and members of the borstal staff, instruction is given in rifle shooting with .22 and at exercises with .303 rifles. The firearms are securely locked away, and the bolts are removed from weapons and stored separately. So far as is known, there have been no incidents suggesting the misuse of firearms. That is the answer to the noble Lord. But I think that noble Lords who are interested in this subject would do well to have it referred to an expert body rather than to ask the Government to make a quick decision, prejudging the issue, on which there is rather more to be said than may appear at first sight.
§ LORD KILMANYMy Lords, can my noble friend give an assurance that the Army Cadet Force Association will be fully consulted before any decision is come to in this matter?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, that will be for the Advisory Council on the Penal System. I think they would want to take note of what the noble Lord has said.
BARONESS WOOTTONOF ABINGERMy Lords, would the noble Lord name the two institutions at which this training is given? I think there is another institution in Scotland as well, is there not? May we have the names of all three?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMYes, indeed, my Lords. That was a part of the noble Baroness's original Question. The Army Cadet Force units, each containing about thirty trainees, operate at Rochester and Lowdham Grange Borstals in England, and at the Polmont Borstal Institution in Scotland.
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether we can have an assurance that these borstal inmates are not having rifles given to them as prizes to take away with them when they leave?