§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are now carrying out the undertaking to supply the vessels which were part of the Simonstown Agreement.]
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, under the Simonstown Agreement the South African Government announced its intention of ordering in the United Kingdom a number of naval vessels. The supply of these vessels has been completed, and Her Majesty's Government consider that its obligations under this section of the Simonstown Agreement have been discharged.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, can the noble Lord say what degree of consultation persists now between our Minister of Defence and the South African Minister of Defence to protect this vital route?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I cannot say the degree, but consultations do take place.
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONMy Lords, I regret that I was unable to be here yesterday, but I have of course made myself familiar with all the answers which the noble Lord gave. I notice that he said he could not be held responsible for the French Government. I should like to ask him this simple factual question which is not concerned with responsibility. He stated that we could not supply any arms to South Africa because of a resolution of the United Nations which binds us. May I ask the noble Lord whether the French Government dissociated themselves from that resolution which prevents us from sending arms, but which apparently does not prevent the French from doing so?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I should be most grateful to the noble Earl if he would put down a specific Question to that effect. I cannot give him an answer.
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONBut, my Lords, I have put down the Question over and over again. I have asked the noble Lord over and over again. Surely the Government can answer a simple factual question of that kind.
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I regret not without notice, because I am not fully clear about subsequent attitudes of various national States in response to the United Nations resolution in question.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that the noble Earl below me on the Benches here asked exactly the same supplementary question last week, and was then asked to put down a Question. The Question on the Order Paper standing in my name is really a question that I have asked on his behalf.
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the point is simply that the two questions are not the same.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, will the noble Lord tell the House whether the Government are continuing to supply ammunition for the ships which they have sold to South Africa under the Simonstown Agreement?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, we are continuing to supply training ammunition.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, does that mean that the Government have refused to supply ammunition, ordinary ammunition, live ammunition, for the ships which they have sold to South Africa?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMNo, my Lords. I said that we are continuing to supply training ammunition.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, what does that mean? Does that mean that the noble Lord is not supplying live ammunition or that he is?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMYes, my Lords. You have to have live ammunition to train.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, I think he is really not behaving according to the traditions 553 of this House in answering these questions. He knows perfectly well what I mean. Are the Government continuing to supply ammunition for these ships, or is the noble Lord calling it "training ammunition" because the Government are not facing up to calling it "ammunition".
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, obviously this question awakens great interest in the House. Would it not be wise to have a short debate on this subject when all these points can be gone into?
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this question? He has repeatedly said to this House that he is not responsible for the decisions of the French Government. But can he, for the benefit of the House, obtain some information, for which he has been asked again and again, as to what the French Government are actually doing?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, if the noble Lord will put down a Question I will answer it with pleasure.