§ 2.43 p.m.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government who is at present in command of the naval base at Simonstown; whether it is a fact that the French flag now flies over Admiralty House; whether any changes have been made in the facilities offered to Her Majesty's ships since our refusal to supply vessels to the Government of the South African Republic following the Simonstown Agreement; and whether they are satisfied that the facilities now available at the base are adequate to secure the protection of the increasing volume of British shipping round the Cape.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE, R.A.F. (LORD WINTER-BOTTOM)My Lords, the Simonstown naval base is under the control of the South African Navy. British interests are represented by the Senior British Naval Officer, South Africa, with the rank of Commodore. The facilities at Simonstown are provided by the South African Navy, but under the Simonstown Agreement the Royal Navy has access to them.
No changes have been made in the facilities available to the Royal Navy, nor would we expect there to be any, since Her Majesty's Government consider that the United Kingdom's obligations under the Agreement have been, and are being, carried out. Those items which Her Majesty's Government refused to supply to the Government of South Africa were not covered by the Agreement.
The South African Navy is purchasing submarines from France and is being assisted by French technicians and advisers in preparing for their operation. The number and location of these advisers is entirely a matter between the French and South African Governments. I have no evidence of any flag, other than the South African flag, being flown from Admiralty House.
492 The facilities at Simonstown would make a valuable contribution to the defence of the sea routes round the Cape which could also be defended by our general capability forces.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, arising out of that comprehensive Answer, for which I thank the noble Lord, may I ask him this supplementary question? In view of the categorical statement in this House last week by the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, who negotiated the Simonstown Agreement, that an undertaking on our part to supply certain naval vessels was part of that Agreement, does not the noble Lord think it right that we ought now to carry out our side of the bargain?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, in my reply to the noble Lord's Question I said that we had carried out our part of the bargain. That consisted of providing certain anti-submarine frigates, and coastal minesweepers to the South African navy. That obligation has been carried out.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, does the noble Lord recall that Her Majesty's Government paid a subvention, or made a loan, of £6 million to Cammell Laird, and that that sum of money happens to be the price of one frigate?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is not directly related to the noble Lord's Question.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, if the Government believe, as I understand they do from the Answer the noble Lord has given, that the base at Simonstown is, if not vital, at any rate very necessary for the protection of British interests in that part of the world, would it not be wise not to adopt too unfriendly an attitude to a Government in whose power it is to deny us those facilities? Would it really be too much to ask the Government to explain why it is not possible to sell submarines and naval ships to the South African Government when they cannot, in any circumstances, be used for the policy of apartheid?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, We are, as a nation, bound by the United Nations Resolution 191 of June, 1964. 493 This calls on States, which includes the United Kingdom, to
cease forthwith the sale and shipment to South Africa of arms, ammunition, of all types, military vehicles and equipment and materials for the manufacture and maintenance of arms and ammunition in South Africa.That resolution is a general ban on the supply of all forms of arms to South Africa and that is what ties the hands of Her Majesty's Government.
§ THE EARL OF GLASGOWMy Lords, are the Government aware that, despite this extraordinary changed attitude of Her Majesty's Government towards the South African Navy, so far as I am aware no British ship has received anything but the greatest help and hospitality from the South African Navy in Simonstown?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as I said in reply to a Question last week, the Simonstown Agreement, as drafted, is in operation now and is being carried out in co-operative terms by both sides.
§ LORD STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, in view of the noble Lord's recent reply to my noble Leader, can he say whether the United Nations have taken over the responsibility of safeguarding our shipping round the Cape of Good Hope?
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, can the noble Lord say why the Government feel bound by the resolution that he has quoted and not bound by various resolutions dealing with Gibraltar?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is another and entirely different question.
§ VISCOUNT DAVENTRYMy Lords, can the noble Lord answer the final paragraph of the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, which has not, so far as I know, been answered?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am afraid that it may be due to lack of clarity on my part. The facilities at Simonstown, as I said, would make a valuable contribution to the defence of the sea routes round the Cape and—a point I should like to stress—they could also be defended by our general capability forces.
§ VISCOUNT DAVENTRYMy Lords, the question as to "adequate facilities" has not been answered. Is the noble Lord satisfied that the facilities are adequate?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, yes; I think the arrangements made are adequate.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the United Nations passed the resolution in June, 1964? The Tory Party were then in power and they never made any protestations about it.
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his helpful remark.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, may I ask, with apologies, and I hope in conclusion, whether the noble Lord is satisfied that the Government of South Africa are themselves satisfied with the working of the Agreement? Because I was there the other day and I have reason to believe that they are not.
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, no Agreement works to everyone's satisfaction, but in operational terms it is working very well.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, will the Minister agree, in view of the world-wide and growing expression of abhorrence against apartheid, that the Labour Government were extremely far-sighted when they made the decision not to send any arms to South Africa?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as I said in answer to a supplementary question, Her Majesty's Government are bound by the United Nations resolution of June, 1964.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, was it not made perfectly clear at the time of the passing of that resolution that it was not to include the supply of ships, and so on, under the Simonstown Agreement?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, ships were included under the Agreement and the ships have been supplied.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the French Government are equally bound by that resolution?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as I said at the time when I was asked a question on this subject, I am not responsible for the activities of the French Government.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, arising out of the incompleteness of some parts of the noble Lord's reply to the Question, may I ask whether he is aware that Great Britain has an investment in South Africa of around 2,600 million rand, and that its protection merits a better degree of support than the British Government are giving at present? Further, is he aware that the present policy is causing great irritation, as expressed by several Ministers in South Africa, and that in the event of a crisis the United Nations, which is now in debt to the tune of £70 million, would be a poor substitute for any assistance?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am aware of the British investment in South Africa, but Her Majesty's Government are also aware of investment in other parts of the Commonwealth which are supporting the United Nations resolution which I mentioned.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that Her Majesty's Government are supported by all those who support the rule of international law through the United Nations?
§ LORD VIVIANMy Lords, did the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, say that certain ships had been supplied by Her Majesty's Government?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMYes, my Lords.
§ LORD VIVIANThen may I ask him whether the two frigates which were under order from the Upper Clyde Shipbuilding Company have been supplied? May I remind the Minister that I put down a Question on this subject two and a half years ago?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I was not accountable for my Department two and a half years ago.