§ 3.47 p.m.
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received.
§ Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Baroness Phillips.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ Clause 1 [Mentally handicapped children]:
§ LORD ABERDARE moved the following Amendment:
§
Page 2, line 44, at end insert—
("(iii) he shall be afforded the opportunity of taking a conversion course leading to recognition as a fully qualified schoolteacher after one year's probationary service;
(iv) in the event of his qualifying as a teacher by means of five years post-diploma experience, he shall only be required to complete a further one year's probationary service.")
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, since I put down this Amendment a most welcome and satisfactory statement has been made in another place by the Secretary of State for Education and Science. He said that in the first place one-year courses will be available to those who hold a diploma to enable them to attain the status of fully qualified teacher, and in the second place that diploma holders who qualify by virtue of five years' post-diploma service would not be required to serve a further probationary period. This is highly satisfactory to me and meets the purpose of my Amendment.
§
I do not wish to seem niggling, but I should like to ask for an explanation of one phrase that was used in his statement, which is to be found in Hansard of May, 7, col. 563. He said:
528
Where they have the necessary admission qualifications I am proposing to make available, subject to teacher supply, a number of one-year courses which will enable them immediately after completion of the course to be given the status of qualified teachers.
I should like some further explanation on what are the "necessary admission qualifications". Are they, as I suspect, the requirements that the diploma holder has to have five "O" levels which is the normal standard for teacher training? For entry to the diploma courses they needed only three "O" levels. Is the position to be this: that those who hold this diploma in the teaching of mentally handicapped children will be told that if when they were at school they obtained five "O" levels they can go on this one-year course and eventually become a qualified teacher, but if they had only three or four "O" levels, they will have to wait five years and cannot go on a course? I should have thought that it was the possession of the diploma, together with satisfactory reports and references, that should qualify a teacher for a conversion course, and not his or her previous performance at school. That would seem to me to be more in keeping with the principle of equal opportunity, and certainly with the principle to which the Government paid such heed; that of postponing selection until as late as possible.
§ These conversion courses are only to cover a transitional period, until such time as the diploma courses are phased out, and three-year courses at colleges of education are the normal rule. I should have thought that in this transitional period it was right to give an opportunity to all those who have gained a diploma to take this one-year conversion course.
§ I should like to make one further point on that, which also is important. When the time comes when these three-year courses are the normal rule, once again those who are to enter on them will require five "O" levels, and those who have fewer will be denied the opportunity of going on these courses, or even of obtaining any form of diploma. I wonder whether the Government are satisfied that this is right in a profession already under-staffed and under-trained. Would they not consider that, in the interests of a fully-trained teaching profession, which they strongly support, more and not less 529 opportunity for training should be given to the teachers of the mentally handicapped? The Training Council have done excellent work hitherto with their diploma in the teaching of mentally handicapped children, and we should all acknowledge our debt of gratitude to them. They have indeed significantly raised the standard of training in the Service. But is it really wise in the future to raise the entry standards to the extent of requiring five "O" levels, and neglecting those who have hitherto been able to obtain a diploma?
§ My Lords, I know that my noble friend Lord Grenfell, who unfortunately is detained on other business, was hoping to be here and would have supported me in these few remarks. I beg to move.
§ 3.52 p.m.
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I am almost sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has read what the Secretary of State said in another place, because I was looking forward to being able to tell him what he has already discovered for himself. Nevertheless, I am pleased to be able to underline what was said. If I may follow on his point in connection with the necessary admission qualifications, I thought perhaps he was assuming that the provision referred to the probationary period, but I now see he was not. So far as the admission qualification goes, it will of course be five "O" levels. I should like to say at once to the noble Lord that somebody entering a college of education—and I am speaking now as an ex-member of the profession—who could obtain three "O" levels, would surely not have a great deal of difficulty in obtaining five "O" levels. If this were a matter of obtaining some "A" levels there might be some hardship, but I should not have thought there would be so much difficulty in obtaining the additional "O" levels. In other words, the kind of person who can obtain three could obtain five.
On the question of the training under the conversion courses scheme, I am sure the noble Lord will appreciate that a great deal of discussion is taking place on this matter because, obviously, not all the training schemes can be the same. There are so many different types of teachers entering: there are those who will be completely new, those who will be in the middle of their training for the 530 diploma. Some courses we are calling "end-on" conversion courses, which go on after diploma courses; and there are others which will run in association with three-year courses of training. So the types of training which will be offered are still very much under consideration, and will be, with the Training Council. I am afraid that I cannot suggest to the noble Lord that there will be any modification of the qualifications for entry. I think that that deals with all the questions he put.
May I follow up one point which the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, put to me and to which I did not reply at the time of the Committee stage, concerning the changeover of staff during this rather difficult period? Those entering the Education Service will of course be subject to the Education Service provisions in respect of holidays and pay, and so on. Since these differ from the service conditions under which they are now working, the difference will be dealt with by some extra staff. Where this is not possible, the staff already there will be paid extra if they have to work longer and have not such long holidays. I am giving this reply now so that it will be on the Record for the noble Lord. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has any other points to raise.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. She has certainly covered all my points, but I was not very satisfied about the entry qualifications. I am glad to know that the content of these conversion courses is still under discussion, because I believe that they should vary to take account of varying needs. I am very sorry to hear that there will be no modification in the entry requirements. It is not satisfactory to say that people who have obtained three "O" levels should be able to obtain five, because the fact is that they have already left school and are now working.
§ LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEYBut, my Lords, (will the noble Lord give way?), one does not have to be at school to get five "O" levels. These people can take two "O" levels, and surely they ought to be in a position where they can do so, and then take the year's course. So they would take, at the most, two years to convert, instead of five. Surely this is a reasonably satisfactory solution.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, I am very glad to hear that. It is at least some consolation that they can get an additional two "O" levels at some further educational establishment. In any case, there is no need to pursue this matter very much further. I am grateful that the Government have gone at any rate as fas as they have done in helping, and if they can help further I shall be more grateful. My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.