§ 2.49 p.m.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I wonder whether I may ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House a domestic question, of which I have given him some notice. I understand that yesterday Divisions were called in both Houses at the same time, and that a number of noble Lords were listening to the debate on Cambodia from the Peers' Gallery in another place. When the Division there was called at the same time as the Division was called here, noble Lords were not allowed to leave the Gallery and to come and vote in the Division in this House. On the face of it, this hardly seems to be a satisfactory state of affairs, and I wonder whether the noble Lord has had, or will have, consultations with those in authority in another place to see that this does not happen again.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition, for having given me notice that he intended to raise the matter. I am aware that certain noble Lords yesterday found themselves in a position where they thought they were unable to return from another place to vote in this House. This was true, in the sense that practice in another place, for historic reasons, forbids any Stranger from using the Members' Lobby during a Division. There are alternative and longer routes (which I have myself used on such an occasion) which they might have taken, but I have since also learned—and I have not had very long to investigate the matter—that they were not in fact informed that there was a Division in your Lordships' House because there was a misapprehension as to whether they would be able to return. If any noble Lords wish advice as to how to get back without going through the Members' Lobby of another place, I shall be happy to brief them.
225 None the less, I am glad to be able to tell the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, that the consultations for which he has asked have in fact already taken place between the Houses. I have myself been in touch with the Leader of another place, and officials of the House have also been in touch, and I am informed that they have considered a solution which should ensure that this inconvenience will not arise again. Mr. Speaker, I am informed, has agreed that Peers may proceed across the Commons Lobby for the purpose of going to a Division in the House of Lords. They will not be allowed to do so for any other reason during a Commons Division.
At the same time, I think this is perhaps a suitable opportunity for me to remind your Lordships that in the last resort it must remain a matter of individual responsibility for Peers to ensure, by one means or another, that they are capable of returning to the House in time for a Division. There are other hazards that could befall them. So that there may be no misunderstanding, I should like to say that I know that the Doorkeepers, under Mr. Harrison, and in particular Mr. Reuter, always go to great lengths to inform noble Lords, and I am sure that there is no reflection on their help in this matter on this occasion.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, the Leader of the House, for having taken such prompt and satisfactory action. I think we can now, on both sides of the House, assure any Members of another place who come that we will allow them to get out, too.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, if I may just answer the noble Lord, I am not sure that that, because of the technical difficulties of getting off the Steps of the Throne when locked in on one of our longer Divisions, is quite so easy. I am not quite sure what the noble Lord thinks he has promised, but no doubt we should wish to be as courteous and considerate to another place as they undoubtedly have been to us in this matter.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, does not this question show the ineptitude of the Tory Whips' Office? They were bound to know that there was a Division in the House at 7 o'clock; they created the Division on the tied cottages at 7 o'clock. The blame was theirs, not ours.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I fear that I cannot accept that reflection on the Tory Whips' office, because it could also reflect on the Government Whips' office.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, may I say, as one of the Peers who was trapped in the Gallery, that if one had been told there was a Division here, having been on that side of the House one would have found a devious way of getting here. The trouble is that we were not told—not by our own people, but by those in the other place because they thought we could not get out. Since we did not know that there was a Division here, there was no devious way of getting out.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I think I covered this point. I am quite sure any noble Lords should take the noble Baroness with them as a guide in these matters.
§ LORD RITCHIE-CALDERMy Lords, as one of the noble Lords who was compulsorily paired with the noble Baroness, I may say that we had the better of the count.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, as one of the noble Lords who was, very regrettably, unpaired, may I ask whether the holding of a Division in this House might not also be announced by the wider ringing of bells, as is done in another place, in addition to the vocal announcement which is done so efficiently.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, this is a point which has been discussed, without progress. If any other noble Lords wish to confess their default, no doubt the House will hear them. The point raised by my noble friend Lord Segal is one that we have tried to pursue, without much success, whether bells are right, or the television Annunciator, but we will consider the matter further.