HL Deb 25 March 1970 vol 308 cc1410-4

2.50 p.m.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL)

My Lords, I beg to move that the Second Report from the Select Committee be now considered.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

The Committee's Report was as follows:

1. PRAYERS

The Committee have considered, in consultation with the Archbishop of Canterbury, a proposal for a variation in the form of Prayers at present in daily use in the House of Lords. They recommend, as an experiment to be carried out until the end of July, that authority be given to the Lord Bishop who is reading Prayers for the day to open the reading of Prayers with any one of the following Psalms, at his discretion: 24, 46, 67, 93 or 111, in place of Psalm 67, which at present alone stands appointed for daily use; and that no other variation be made for the time being in the daily form of the Prayers.

2. LIBRARY

The Report from the Library Sub-Committee for the year 1969 was laid before the Committee and agreed to.

3. PARLIAMENT OFFICE

The Committee considered the extra assistance required by the Examiner of Acts for the reading of Private Bills and Measures and authorised the appointment of an additional Personal Secretary in the Parliament Office for this purpose and to assist in the Secretarial work of the Office generally.

4. REVISED SCALE OF PAY

The Committee sanctioned the application of Establishment Circular D.E.O. (70) (PAY) No. 2—Paperkeeping Grades—Revised (Interim) Scales of Pay to the grade of Attendants, House of Lords.

5. HANSARD REPORTING STAFF

  1. (a) Select Committees on Public Bills
  2. (b) Typing for Debates

6. HOUSE OF LORDS' JUDICIAL FEES

The Committee approved a revision, with effect from 1st April, 1970, of:—

  1. (a) the Schedule of fees payable on Judicial proceedings; and
    2. 1411
  2. (b) the taxing fees payable upon the sums allowed by the Taxing Officer of Judicial Costs.

The Committee recommend that the fees at (a) above be doubled; and that the fees at (b) above be charged at 2½ per cent. on the whole of the amount allowed by the Taxing Officer on Judicial bills of costs in place of the present charge of 2½ per cent. on the first £ 300 and 1 per cent. thereafter.

The Committee further recommend that the use of adhesive stamps on Judicial documents be discontinued.

7. DOORKEEPERS

The Committee authorised an increase in the allowances for the purchase and maintenance of dress clothes accessories.

8. SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE 1969–70 AND REVISED ESTIMATE 1970–71

The Committee approved the Supplementary Estimate 1969–70 and the revised Estimate 1970–71.

9. SUPERANNUATION

The Committee sanctioned the payment of the following awards under the Superannuation Act, 1965: —

  1. (a) Gratuity to Mrs. Lilian Maude Wildego, Housemaid, who resigned on the 7th February. 1970.
  2. (b) Gratuity to Mrs. Annie Kathleen Vollar, Housemaid, who resigned on the 14th February, 1970.

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be agreed to. In moving this Motion, I should like to draw the attention of the House to Item No. 1, dealing with the Prayers with which every Sitting of the House begins. This is a matter that concerns the whole House, and it is for the House to decide what form of Prayers should be used. At its last meeting, the Offices Committee considered a proposal by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester for a variation of the present form of Prayers. After some discussion, in which the Committee had the assistance of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Committee decided to recommend no change in the Prayers themselves, but as an experiment until the end of July it is proposed to give the right reverend Prelate who is reading Prayers for the day a choice of Psalm at his discretion.

If your Lordships agree to this experiment, it will be again for the House to decide at a later stage whether it likes the experiment and wishes to continue the practice. No permanent change is being proposed for the time being. I beg to move.

Moved, That the Report be agreed to.—(The Earl of Listowel.)

THE LORD BISHOP OF PORTSMOUTH

My Lords, am I to understand that the choice of Psalm is to be from the whole Psalter, or is there to be a limited number from which the choice can be made?

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, in reply to the right reverend Prelate, I understand that the choice of Psalm will be from a group of Psalms from which the right reverend Prelate of the day will make his own choice.

THE LORD BISHOP OF PORTSMOUTH

My Lords, I merely want to avoid the possibility of the House having Psalm 119.

LORD SORENSEN

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether the Committee will consider that, in place of the Psalms or any other prayers, we might at times have a period of silence when we can meditate as we please?

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, the noble Lord, like any other noble Lord, is entitled to ask the Offices Committee to consider any matter that he wishes it to consider. If he wishes the Offices Committee to consider this proposal, I will certainly see that it is on the agenda for a meeting of that Committee.

LORD PARGITER

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether or not the spiritual needs of the House might be met by Prayers once a week?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: NO.

LORD CAMOYS

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester is a friend of mine. As a Roman Catholic I like Prayers as they are, and I attend whenever I am here in time. I do not want a change.

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, in reply to noble Lords, may I say that I am sure the Offices Committee will be glad to hear any suggestion that they may wish to make.

LORD REA

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether this is now the time to register any protest or dissent, and whether if the House does not do so this experiment will be put into practice?

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, yes; the noble Lord is quite correct. Unless any noble Lord objects, this practice will continue.

LORD TAYLOR OF MANSFIELD

My Lords, will the proposed reading of the Psalms be from the Authorised Version or from the New English Bible?

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, I am afraid that that is a question I cannot answer without notice.

LORD SOPER

My Lords, who will be responsible for drawing up the body of Psalms from which the right reverend Prelates will have a selection?

THE EARL OF LISTOWEL

My Lords, I am afraid noble Lords are catching me out with some of their questions. If your Lordships would refer to Item No. 1 of the Report you will see that five Psalms are specified in place of Psalm 67, which at present stands alone for daily use. The choice will therefore be made from that group.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER)

My Lords, your Lordships will see that Item 6 of this Report is concerned with judicial fees, of which there are two kinds: first, fees payable at various stages of appeals; and secondly, the fees payable on taxed costs. In an ordinary year the whole provision for the Supreme Court and for the county court is met out of the fees payable in those courts, except for the remuneration of the judges, which is, of course, paid out of the Consolidated Fund. That happy position has never obtained in appeals to your Lordships' House. The general fees have remained substantially the same since 1922, a period of nearly half a century, and the fees on taxation are based on percentages fixed in 1887.

The amounts that these fees produce are small. The fees on judicial proceedings produce, on average, about £ 1,300 a year, and taxing fees about £ 560 a year. The sums are appropriated to the House of Lords Vote. The increases which the Offices Committee have recommended will have the effect of bringing the House of Lords fees broadly into line with the corresponding fees charged in the Supreme Court. They represent, in my view, a reasonable increase in the modest contribution which parties to appeals in this House make towards the cost of the administration of justice. If the House approves this increase, as I hope it will, I shall be moving the necessary Amendments to Judicial Standing Orders tomorrow.

On Question, Motion agreed to.