HL Deb 19 March 1970 vol 308 cc1233-5
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to take any steps to remove from the Roll of Her Majesty's Privy Council the Chief Justice of the so-called Republic of Rhodesia.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD SHEPHERD)

My Lords, Sir Hugh Beadle took an Oath of Allegiance to the Crown when he was admitted to the Privy Council. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs said in another place on March 2, those who continue to serve the illegal regime after the purported assumption of republican status can no longer be regarded as serving the Crown. We are waiting to see whether Sir Hugh Beadle intends to take any step to resolve this contradiction.

LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that very satisfactory Answer, may I ask him what steps the Government propose to take if Sir Hugh Beadle does not take any steps to resolve the contradiction?

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, at the present moment I should regard that as a hypothetical question.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, may I ask this supplementary question? All of us realise the complexity of the present situation which has been created by the proclamation of a Republic, but do not the Government feel that, whatever may be their opinion of the present Government of Rhodesia, there is no suggestion in the Answer given by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, of any reflection on the personal integrity of Sir Hugh Beadle? I fully understand that as the situation develops certain decisions may have to be taken, but I rather got the impression from the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, that there was a reflection on the integrity of Sir Hugh Beadle.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, Order!

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I want merely to ask a question.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)

My Lords—

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I am not being long about it.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Sit down.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I did not wish to interrupt the noble Marquess, but I think the House will take so much discussion on a Question, and no more. It would be helpful if the noble Marquess would now put his question. I think he has already got his argument across.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I will rapidly put my question. Is there in the Government's mind any suggestion of a reflection on the integrity of Sir Hugh Beadle, or is it merely something which must happen owing to the changed situation?

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I would not agree with the noble Marquess that this is a complex subject. I should have thought that we had a stark fact: that Rhodesia is in rebellion with the Crown. That means that any members or supporters of the regime are in fact seeking to deprive Her Majesty of her authority over one of her Dominions. Therefore any act by anyone has to be considered not only by the Crown itself but also by that individual. As to anybody's personal integrity, I think that is for each individual himself to judge.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the easiest way to deal with this problem is never to invite these people to Privy Council meetings, but to let them keep the symbol?

LORD SEGAL

My Lords, is my noble friend able to give the House any indication of the reasons which induced Sir Hugh Beadle to waive his Oath of Allegiance?

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I understand that as a Privy Counsellor you take an Oath of Allegiance on being admitted to the Privy Council. You are not required to repeat it. At the present moment I am not aware of the intentions of Sir Hugh Beadle in this matter.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, has Sir Hugh Beadle repudiated his allegiance presently?

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, here the matter is complex. If Sir Hugh Beadle were to continue to give support to, and serve in, a rebellion, I should have thought that that was a direct contradiction to the Oath of Allegiance as a Privy Counsellor.

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, without wishing in any way to deny the difficult and complex questions that may be involved, may I ask whether the Government are suggesting that they wish the judges in Rhodesia no longer to carry out any judicial functions in that country?

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, that is another question. If the noble Lord wishes for an answer, perhaps he would put the question on the Order Paper.

LORD CHORLEY

My Lords, is it possible to be a rebel and at the same time maintain allegiance to the Crown?

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I should have thought that the two things completely contradicted one another.