§ 3.45 p.m.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, with the permission of the House I should like to repeat a Statement on the responsibility for the cost of pensions to expatriate officers in respect of pre-independence Government service which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of Over-seas Development. This is the Statement:
"Her Majesty's Government have recently given careful consideration to representations made by several Governments of developing countries which were formerly British dependent territories about the financial burden on their economies of their responsibility for paying pensions and compensation to expatriate officers who were in Government service in those territories be-fore independence.
"Having regard to these representations and to the views expressed by many sections of informed opinion in 824 this country, including Members of this House, the Government have decided that as part of their policy of aid to development they are willing at the re-quest of any Government concerned to consider assuming responsibility for the cost of pensions to expatriate officers in respect of pre-independence Government service. The assumption of such a responsibility would be taken into account in determining the total amount of aid a country might receive for all purposes having regard to needs and the funds available in the aid programme.
"In general the Government would be willing to assume responsibility from April 1, 1971. We could not contemplate reimbursement of expenditure incurred or due to be incurred up to that date. In broad terms, the officers whose pensions would be included in any arrangement would be those who are covered by a Public Officers Agreement or would in the view of Her Majesty's Government have been covered if there had been an Agreement and who are not citizens of the country concerned. Outstanding com-mutation and compensation loans would also be covered and annual payments of principal or interest due after April 1, 1971, would be waived.
"The Government are also willing to consider entering into similar agreements with the Governments of dependent territories approaching independence. In the case of other dependent territories account would be taken of their expenditure on expatriate pensions in assessing their needs for development expenditure, which we recognise as constituting a special and increasing claim on the Aid Programme.
"I propose to lay before the House in due course a Bill which would en-able me to assume responsibility if necessary for the payment of individual pensioners. Until there was such enabling legislation we could only proceed by way of annual reimbursement of the total amounts involved to the Governments concerned.
"The Government's decision removes the impediment to a renewed aid programme in Tanzania; and we shall be ready at any time to exchange views with the Tanzania Government on this subject."
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for this Statement, which we heartily welcome. I think that this is what we have always advocated should be done. But may I ask the noble Lord these questions? First, can he say what will be the likely overall cost of these pensions to the Exchequer? And what will be the interim annual disbursement to which he referred before enabling legislation is introduced? Lastly, can he tell us whether the Government propose to apply these concessions to Kenya, in view of our present concern about British East African Asians?
§ LORD WADEMy Lords, I should like to join in thanking the noble Lord for repeating this Statement. We certainly welcome this decision: I wish that it had been made many years ago. May I put two questions? In this rather complex subject of expatriate officers' pensions, the noble Lord will be aware that there have been a number of border-line cases on which unsuccessful representations have been made from time to time. To what extent will these anomalies be overcome by the statement that the new arrangement will cover those who would be entitled to benefit if there had been a Public Officers Agreement? Secondly, as to the amount of the pensions for which Her Majesty's Government will be responsible, will there be any adjustment to take account of the rises in the cost of living?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I acknowledge the gratitude of the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough. In regard to Kenya, we expect that a delegation from Kenya will be coming to London next month to talk about aid generally, as well as about pensions, and this might be a convenient opportunity for further talks about immigration. As to the cost, the sum involved on pensions is some £12 million, but naturally it will decrease with the passing of the years. It is difficult to assess what will be the final cost to the United Kingdom Government, because we shall have to take into account the aid ceilings for the various countries. Therefore it is not possible to give a net figure. With regard to the interim annual expenditure, I fear that I have not that figure with me, but I will let the noble Earl know it.
826 Apart from the £12 million that I have just mentioned, compensation and com-mutation loans will represent some £50 million, to be reimbursed over a period of some 22 years from 1971. As regards the borderline cases this Statement does not envisage any change in the present basis of pensions. The phrase that the noble Lord, Lord Wade, used was in fact to cover Nigeria, which was on the point of signing a Public Service Agreement, but because of certain changes, with the Federal Government coming into being, it was not possible for the agreement, which was to cover Nigerian expatriate officers, to be signed. As regards the cost of living, this Statement does not affect the level at which pensions will be paid.
§ LORD ALPORTMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, in the event of any overseas Government being in arrears in the payment of pensions to pensioners, Her Majesty's Government intend to make good those arrears if and when there is this requirement to take over responsibility for the pension payment to pensioners in that territory?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, so far as expatriate officers are concerned, I see no reason why there should be any arrears, because I think that under the previous Administration the arrangement was made that if there was default Her Majesty's Government made ex gratia loans to the pensioned officers affected. As to how this will be recovered from a defaulting country if we were to enter into a new arrangement with them, this would be a matter for discussion.
THE LORD BISHOP OF DURHAMMy Lords, I should like from these Benches to join in the general welcome for this Statement, expressing as it does this wide interdependence between different nations. Certainly it is a matter of great importance to international social justice.
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, I also should like to say how pleased I am that this has been done, but perhaps I may ask for a little more information on the cost. I understood from what my noble friend said that the cost would be taken into account (I think those were his words) in arriving at the aid programme. Does this mean that the aid ceiling will not be raised at all, and that 827 the extra cost to the British Government will be nil? Or will there be some additional cost, and no deduction in other forms of aid?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, we have entered into this arrangement on the basis that the aid ceiling will remain as it now is but will increase with the passing of the years. In regard to an individual country, the way in which this would affect its overall aid would depend upon its own particular needs. In other words, there would not be an immediate deduction from whatever figure might be arrived at as to the needs of that country in order to pay for the pension, but it would be taken into account.
§ LORD ALPORTMy Lords, may I ask one other question? In the event of the pensioner being a national of the country in which the new pension arrangement has been made, do Her Majesty's Government take over responsibility for paying to him a pension, despite the fact that he is not a national of this country—that is, an expatriate officer—and despite any legislation to the contrary which might be introduced in the country concerned in respect of its own nationals and their pension rights and liabilities?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I think I should need to look at that question with some care, but I think I have the gist of it. If a pensioned officer is residing in the country in which he served, and he is an expatriate officer and comes within our expatriate terms of service, then he will receive the pension from Her Majesty's Government.
LORD HAWKEMy Lords, speaking for myself, and I imagine also perhaps for the noble Lord, Lord Fulton, when we were advocating this concession last Wednesday we visualised, I think, that this would be a net addition to the aid and not a possible substitution for it.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I share the wish that it could be a net gain. However, we have to contain (I think this is generally accepted, although perhaps with reluctance) an overseas aid ceiling in the light of our own economic problems, although they are much lighter than they were when we took office in 828 1964. But, naturally, this point will have to be borne in mind.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether this does not really mean that we are paying these pensioners out of overseas aid? Is there any need for self-congratulation?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, if my noble friend will read the Statement, I think she will see that the conclusion that she has arrived at is not correct.