§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will substitute a more current term for Honours bestowed in recognition of public service for the outdated term "British Empire" (M.B.E., etc.).]
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)NO, my Lords. Such a possibility has been carefully considered, but in the absence of any widespread desire for a change, the Government see no advantage in seeking to disturb the present arrangements.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for that Answer, which I expected. May I ask him this question? What is the use of an honour, and making one a Member of the Order of the British Empire, or a Commander of the Order of the British Empire, when the Empire ceased to exist in the last decade? Is it not ironic that many of those who have received this honour have received it for their public service for transforming the Empire into a Commonwealth?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I think there is significance in some of the remarks of my noble friend, but I some-times wonder what particular role the members of the Order of the Garter play.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, does not my noble friend think that these honours will disappear when we go into the Common Market and the Empire will be no more?
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend, particularly with reference to the Garter, which has a historic significance that has not been out-dated by tradition, whether he recalls (I ought not to say this, and I apologise for doing so) that Queen Victoria was called Empress of India? Is not this particular honour just as out of date? Could not the name be changed, not to "Commonwealth", because other Governments are concerned, but at least to a Knight or Commander of the Order of the United Kingdom?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that in certain circumstances there can be an illogical affection for something which is old?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I agree entirely. It is also true that the Monarchy is the Defender of the Faith, which has a historic significance. We could extend this also to the Order of the Bath.
§ LORD KILBRACKENMy Lords, has my noble Leader considered the case of St. Michael and St. George? Has not St. George recently been de-frocked?
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, is it not a fact that this House is still held in affection, antiquated though it may be?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I hope that it is held in affection, not per-haps by everybody, but at any rate by many people.