§ 3.9 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF PERTHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the views of the London Transport Executive on fares on the Underground being based on multiples of one shilling, and whether, in view of the serious inflationary implications, they will reconsider their decision to do away with the sixpence.]
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, there are several factors which may affect the level and structure of fares, and I understand that the London Transport Executive would in any case see merit in a fare structure in shilling steps on the Underground for reasons unconnected with the disappearance of the sixpence. Their fare structure is a matter for the Executive and the Greater London Council. Nevertheless, the Government, 223 in a statement made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport, have made it clear that decimalisation cannot of itself be a justification for price increases; that it would be inconsistent with Government policy for it to be used as a pretext for unnecessary prices increases, and that the Executive and the Council are expected to consider their intentions closely in the light of the Government's policy.
The sixpenny coin will remain legal tender until the end of the change-over period. At present there is no fixed date for this change-over, but the Treasury will be able to bring the period to an end at any time, subject to the approval of Parliament, as soon as the country is ready to work in decimal currency.
§ THE EARL OF PERTHMy Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for his reply, I must say that the uncertainty about the sixpence is surely extremely unsatisfactory. First of all, the London Transport Executive said that they would have to make a change which would cost £1 million, which in itself is inflationary. Then, taking another aspect of transport—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Speech!
§ THE EARL OF PERTH— the public authorities throughout the country, is it not true that they will have to change their parking meters because the sixpences are going to disappear? That will involve—
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Earl? I realise that noble Lords frequently wish to back up their questions and make them more intelligible by argument, but I wonder whether the noble Earl could come to his actual question?
§ THE EARL OF PERTHMy Lords, my second question, after the first one on the inflationary impact of the London Transport Executive's having to change their machines, is a similar one with regard to local authorities' parking meters, which will mean a 100 per cent. increase owing to the uncertainty.
§ LORD BESWICKNo. my Lords. I do not fellow the noble Earl in his argument about the uncertainty. I invited 224 this House to come to a certain conclusion on the Bill in order to end the uncertainty, and we agreed that the sixpence should be phased out. There is no uncertainty about that. It is for the different authorities, organisations, bodies and individuals who use the various machines to decide their own policy and either to convert to the new coinage or, as in certain cases, such as parking meters, to concentrate on a shilling for twice the amount of time given for sixpence. This is entirely a matter for the different organisations concerned, although one hopes that they will keep within the Government's pricing policy.
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONMy Lords, does this mean that, whenever there is to be an increase in fares, they must go up by a shilling, instead of by sixpence as they normally have done; and is that not a most serious position for the whole of the travelling public?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, this is not an argument about the pricing policy of the London Transport Executive. The noble Earl is under a misapprehension. Other coins as well as the shilling are involved in the new decimal structure, and it would be quite possible for the London Transport Executive so to arrange their fare structure that other coins are used.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, do the Government appreciate that if they had accepted the advice so often given to them to have a 10s. pound, then this useful and economical coin, worth six old pence, the disappearance of which will raise the cost of living in so many ways, would have been a permanent part of our currency?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, one of the noble Earl's most endearing qualities is his readiness to look backwards. We have made a decision. It is now for us to use the decimal coinage which we as a Parliament have agreed upon.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, could someone explain to the London Transport Executive that instead of changing their machines they might change their tickets—divide the ticket down the middle and supply two for the shilling?
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I will bring the noble Lord's suggestion to the 225 attention of the London Transport Executive. I have no doubt that in view of the political complexion of the Greater London Council they will pay particular heed to it.