§ 4.13 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORT-FOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)My Lords, with the permission of your Lordships, I should like to repeat a Statement that has been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Employment. The Statement is as follows:
"Before coming to the issues which are the concern of my Department I should first like to assure the House, in view of what was said yesterday from all sides, that I have this morning confirmed with the Chairman of the Electricity Council that everything which is humanly possible is being done to ensure that advance warning of cuts is given to hospitals and other consumers for whom interruptions of electricity supply produce immediate and critical difficulties. Sir Norman Elliott also informed me that Electricity Boards are doing everything in their power to warn consumers generally of impending cuts.
"The House will recall from my statement yesterday, that there are at present two disputes in the electricity supply industry: one affecting industrial workers, which has already resulted in the present work to rule; the second, affecting supervisory and technical staffs, who are threatening to work to rule from Monday next.
"As regards the latter, I reported yesterday that I had seen representatives of the Electrical Power Engineers' Association and asked them to reconsider their decision to work to rule and the possibility of returning to negotiations. I can now report that, following that meeting, there have been discussions between the Electricity 1055 Council and the Association, and that this possibility is being further explored between them in discussions this afternoon. The House will, I know, join me in hoping that there will be a successful outcome.
"In my discussions this morning with Sir Norman Elliott to which I have already referred, I also reviewed with him the situation in relation to both disputes. Following this, I decided to invite the unions representing industrial staff to meet me this afternoon, and I am glad to say they have accepted this invitation, and I am meeting them as soon as I can leave the House following this Statement. At the same time, I invited the Electricity Council to have a further meeting with me later this evening, following my talks with the unions.
"Subsequently, Mr. Victor Feather got in touch with me and said that he would like to come and see me and report on the meeting he had had this morning with the unions representing the industrial workers. I have seen Mr. Feather this afternoon, and he reported to me that the four unions concerned had indicated that they would be willing to consider suspending industrial action if negotiations could be resumed and the possibility was not ruled out in principle of improving the current offer. Mr. Feather then said that he wished to communicate this to the Electricity Council, and I said that, of course, I would be happy for him to do so, while stressing, of course, that I could not in any way anticipate what the reaction of the Electricity Council might be.
"I would ask the House in view of the important meetings I am about to have, not to press me further this afternoon."
My Lords, that ends the Statement.
§ LORD DELACOURT-SMITHMy Lords, I am sure the House will wish to thank the noble Lord for having communicated this Statement to us. I am sure, too, that your Lordships would wish to welcome such measure of progress as is indicated by the Statement, and the constructive effort made by Mr. Victor Feather in this connection. I do not think it would be desirable to press questions 1056 unduly which might imperil the making of progress in this exceedingly serious and difficult dispute. But I would ask the noble Lord whether he can take note of the hope that the Government will do all that lies in their power to assist the promotion of a settlement and, in particular, will abstain from any action and any speeches (and there have been speeches made in this connection which have by no means improved the situation) that might in any way impede a settlement.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for the restraint that he has invited your Lordships to show this afternoon. I take note of what he has said. If he will allow me to say so, I hope that there will be no provocative statements made anywhere on this subject, pending settlement of the dispute.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord about the situation regarding emergency supplies to hospitals. Some ten years ago, under rather similar circumstances, all the hospitals made arrangements for the use of generators. I should like to know how it is that those arrangements have been allowed to fall into disuse, if that is so. And if they have been allowed to fall into disuse, why cannot they be speedily restored? If, years ago, we were able to provide every hospital with emergency generators, I do not see why it cannot be done now.
VISCOUNT GAGEMy Lords, arising from that question, I am wondering whether it would not be possible to have some small warning period by putting off the lights for a few seconds and then having a period of several minutes before the electricity supply is switched off entirely. That would help hospitals to get emergency appliances into action, and it would also allow people time to get out of lifts. I believe that the police have spent a great deal of time in getting people out of lifts. Is such a warning period technically possible?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, perhaps I might reply first to my noble friend Lord Gage. I take note of what he has said: it seems a very constructive suggestion, and I will have it explored to see whether it can be carried out. With 1057 regard to the Lord Stonham's question, the fact is that every hospital that needs a standby generator has one, for it has been provided. The difficulty lies in not always being able to give previous notice of the cuts. The noble Lord will have seen that, so far as London is concerned, indications of where the cuts are going to fall were clearly set out in The Times this morning. My information is that the periods within which those cuts will take place are amply covered by the notice given there. The trouble is, as my right honourable friend pointed out yesterday, that to some extent the cuts are unpredictable—they are not absolutely predictable. I think everybody is trying to see that proper notice is given, but it may sometimes happen that something occurs which means that no notice can be given in a particular case. I should perhaps also add that different circumstances apply in different parts of the country. But, by and large, what I have said I think covers the facts.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am very glad to hear from the noble Lord that generators are—and I think he said "were"—available to the hospitals. I hope the noble Lord will find ways and means to get this news put across the media of television and radio, particularly television, because on Monday we had on television, from all one can say now, "scare" stories of doctors involved saying that their patients were gravely at risk, were likely to die; and they were seeking to put the responsibility directly upon those who were involved in an industrial dispute. I am very grateful for what the noble Lord has said, and I hope the widest possible publicity on this matter will be given.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I too am very glad to hear that every hospital has a generator; but certainly that fact had not emerged so far, and it should be generally known so that a great deal of understandable anxiety can be obviated. But the fact of lack of warning, sudden cutting off, is not affected by the arrangements we had before. The arrangements were for generators to be on standby duty all the time. They can be obtained. There are a great many firms who in the winter have no use for their generators and they are perfectly willing to lend them to a hospital. I know that I had a group of five hospitals—
§ A NOBLE LORD: Question!
§ LORD STONHAM—and every one had a generator on standby. That is the kind of arrangement we want now.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the noble Lord cannot have quite heard me correctly. I said that every hospital that needed one had a standby generator. By that I meant every hospital in which there is a major operating theatre. There may obviously be a slight gap if there is no notice at all before a standby generator is started up; and that is why it is so very important that notice should be given. I can assure the noble Lord that the Electricity Council and Electricity Authorities are doing everything in their power to make certain that adequate notice is given.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind that all that is necessary is a telephone call to the hospital group secretary?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNYes, my Lords; I am obliged to the noble Lord.