EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL (Hansard, 8 December 1970)

§ LORD WINDLESHAM
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

§ LORD WINDLESHAM
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, explained with great clarity on the Second Reading of this Bill why temporary legislation is unsatisfactory and the action that had been taken over a considerable period of years to reduce the number of items which were subject to annual renewal. The Government agree entirely with what the noble and learned Lord said, and that was one of the reasons for our decision to introduce, in this Session, a comprehensive Bill dealing with immigration, which is the major item in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill involving expenditure of some £7.2 million each year, with an estimated staff of 2,799. If the legislation is on the Statute Book by next year, as it should be, that item will be removed, leaving, as the noble and learned Lord said, just 783 this one relatively small item, Part VII of the Licensing Act 1964.
The licensing planning procedure which is contained in Part VII of that Act is thought to be of some continuing use in a number of areas, and we believe it would be wrong to deprive it of its statutory basis. The object of licensing planning, as I briefly explained on Second Reading, is to enable the functions of licensing justices and local planning authorities to be co-ordinated in redistributing on-licensed premises in the light of local requirements and actual, or proposed, developments. Although it is true, as the noble and learned Lord pointed out, that these Committees were originally set up in areas of acute war damage immediately after the war, there are a number of places where immediate postwar development has been continuously linked with other forms of development and where this consultative machinery is still thought to be useful. There are currently 17 licensing planning areas, and the Home Office approached each of these earlier this year to inquire as to the value of the licensing planning machinery. All save one of those areas indicated that, in the immediate future at least, they saw a need for their work to continue.
I might mention a point of detail in passing. In his speech on the Second Reading of this Bill last week, the noble and learned Lord mentioned the Ramsay Willis Committee. That was a Committee set up by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, when he was at the Home Office, and it considered the question of licensing planning some four or five years ago. It is not the case, as the noble and learned Lord seemed to imply, that the Committee recommended the abolition of licensing planning. Indeed, its main recommendation was for licensing planning to continue in a modified form which would be voluntary in principle but mandatory in certain circumstances, and which would involve continuing consultation between the planning authorities and the licensing justices.
The Home Secretary has been looking into the whole question of the law on liquor licensing generally and will be making an announcement to-day on the need for a full and expert review. As I indicated on Second Reading, consideration 784 of the general framework of the licensing laws will undoubtedly include consideration of licensing planning. It is likely, therefore, that any future provisions for legislation on liquor licensing will include new provisions on licensing planning, if it is decided that that process should be continued in the future. Of course I cannot say at the moment whether or not this will be on the lines of what was recommended by the Ramsay Willis Committee. But whatever form the recommendations take, Part VII of the Licensing Act 1964 is likely at that stage to be repealed. Therefore the effect of the noble and learned Lord's Amendment would be to make Part VII permanent only in the sense that it would continue until some general reform of the licensing laws is effected.
Accordingly, the Government have great pleasure in advising your Lordships to accept this Amendment. I think that between us we can perhaps regard this as a very small milestone on the road towards a more rational style of legislation. I know that that is something which is very close to the heart of the noble and learned Lord opposite, and the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, who spoke on the need to get away from this procedure of expiring laws year after year. Provided that your Lordships' Amendment—if it is accepted—is acceptable in another place, I think we shall have made a small and useful step forward, and one on which we should like to congratulate the noble and learned Lord for taking the initiative.

§ LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR
As my noble friend has mentioned my name, may I take the opportunity of congratulating him and the Government on their decision to accept this Amendment? Some Governments overwork the Parliamentary timetable. The announcement which has been made by my noble friend will have the effect of removing from the Parliamentary Order Paper a Bill which has normally occupied a whole day in each House of Parliament. It really is no small achievement to bring that about. I think that this is an admirable opportunity for bringing the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill to an end. My only doubt is whether I ought personally to apologise to members of the Ramsay Willis Committee and its Chairman, who is now a distinguished judge, for asking them in 1964 785 to do so much work on a somewhat dull subject, only to find that it is now going to be overtaken by another Inquiry. However, they did their work with such thoroughness that I have little doubt that the new Inquiry, which is to be announced to-day, will benefit considerably from the preparatory review of this strange subject of licensing planning which the Ramsay Willis Committee undertook between 1964 and 1965. Very sincerely, I congratulate the Government on this decision.

§ LORD GARDINER
I am grateful to the Government, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, for what he has been good enough to say. I hope that this shows that it is still possible to do a little law reform from these Benches.