§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Windle-sham.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly.
§ [The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1 [Enactments continued in force]:
§ LORD GARDINER moved the following Amendment:
§ Page 1, line 11, leave out from ("shall") to end of line 12 and insert ("become permanent; and accordingly
- (a) section 131 of that Act; and
- (b) in Schedule 11 to that Act the words 'by the expiry of Part VII of this Act',
§ The noble and learned Lord said: I beg leave to move the Amendment standing in my name in the Order Paper. As your Lordships will remember, at the Second Reading of the Bill I pointed out that Government Departments had got into a bad habit of every year asking for another twelve months of life for quite a number of Bills. I gradually succeeded, year after year, in removing one or two in that they were either oracle permanent because they were good Bills, or they were allowed to lapse because 782 they were not. We are now left with only two; aliens and immigration legislation, which will not require an Expiring Laws Continuance Bill next year because of the comprehensive measure which the Government are going to introduce in this Session in that field. Therefore we are now left with only my very old friend, Part VII of the Licensing Act 1964.
§ Although I do not think there has been a Committee stage for the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill since I can remember, I proposed to move two Amendments at the Committee stage; one to make this Part VII permanent, and the other to allow it to lapse, in order that the Government might choose between them. I think there are difficulties in allowing it to lapse because the present provisions have some effect. One is therefore left with the declared intention of the Government—when they can, but not in this Session—to introduce a Licensing Bill in which they will deal with this matter. I have therefore put down an Amendment, the effect of which is to make Part VII of the Licensing Act 1964 permanent, which of course only means until the Government introduce their new Licensing Bill. In these circumstances, I hope that the Government will be able to accent this Amendment. If so, it will mean that next year, for the first time for, I believe, at least half-a-century, we shall no longer need an annual Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. I beg to move.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMThe noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, explained with great clarity on the Second Reading of this Bill why temporary legislation is unsatisfactory and the action that had been taken over a considerable period of years to reduce the number of items which were subject to annual renewal. The Government agree entirely with what the noble and learned Lord said, and that was one of the reasons for our decision to introduce, in this Session, a comprehensive Bill dealing with immigration, which is the major item in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill involving expenditure of some £7.2 million each year, with an estimated staff of 2,799. If the legislation is on the Statute Book by next year, as it should be, that item will be removed, leaving, as the noble and learned Lord said, just 783 this one relatively small item, Part VII of the Licensing Act 1964.
The licensing planning procedure which is contained in Part VII of that Act is thought to be of some continuing use in a number of areas, and we believe it would be wrong to deprive it of its statutory basis. The object of licensing planning, as I briefly explained on Second Reading, is to enable the functions of licensing justices and local planning authorities to be co-ordinated in redistributing on-licensed premises in the light of local requirements and actual, or proposed, developments. Although it is true, as the noble and learned Lord pointed out, that these Committees were originally set up in areas of acute war damage immediately after the war, there are a number of places where immediate postwar development has been continuously linked with other forms of development and where this consultative machinery is still thought to be useful. There are currently 17 licensing planning areas, and the Home Office approached each of these earlier this year to inquire as to the value of the licensing planning machinery. All save one of those areas indicated that, in the immediate future at least, they saw a need for their work to continue.
I might mention a point of detail in passing. In his speech on the Second Reading of this Bill last week, the noble and learned Lord mentioned the Ramsay Willis Committee. That was a Committee set up by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, when he was at the Home Office, and it considered the question of licensing planning some four or five years ago. It is not the case, as the noble and learned Lord seemed to imply, that the Committee recommended the abolition of licensing planning. Indeed, its main recommendation was for licensing planning to continue in a modified form which would be voluntary in principle but mandatory in certain circumstances, and which would involve continuing consultation between the planning authorities and the licensing justices.
The Home Secretary has been looking into the whole question of the law on liquor licensing generally and will be making an announcement to-day on the need for a full and expert review. As I indicated on Second Reading, consideration 784 of the general framework of the licensing laws will undoubtedly include consideration of licensing planning. It is likely, therefore, that any future provisions for legislation on liquor licensing will include new provisions on licensing planning, if it is decided that that process should be continued in the future. Of course I cannot say at the moment whether or not this will be on the lines of what was recommended by the Ramsay Willis Committee. But whatever form the recommendations take, Part VII of the Licensing Act 1964 is likely at that stage to be repealed. Therefore the effect of the noble and learned Lord's Amendment would be to make Part VII permanent only in the sense that it would continue until some general reform of the licensing laws is effected.
Accordingly, the Government have great pleasure in advising your Lordships to accept this Amendment. I think that between us we can perhaps regard this as a very small milestone on the road towards a more rational style of legislation. I know that that is something which is very close to the heart of the noble and learned Lord opposite, and the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, who spoke on the need to get away from this procedure of expiring laws year after year. Provided that your Lordships' Amendment—if it is accepted—is acceptable in another place, I think we shall have made a small and useful step forward, and one on which we should like to congratulate the noble and learned Lord for taking the initiative.
§ LORD BROOKE OF CUMNORAs my noble friend has mentioned my name, may I take the opportunity of congratulating him and the Government on their decision to accept this Amendment? Some Governments overwork the Parliamentary timetable. The announcement which has been made by my noble friend will have the effect of removing from the Parliamentary Order Paper a Bill which has normally occupied a whole day in each House of Parliament. It really is no small achievement to bring that about. I think that this is an admirable opportunity for bringing the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill to an end. My only doubt is whether I ought personally to apologise to members of the Ramsay Willis Committee and its Chairman, who is now a distinguished judge, for asking them in 1964 785 to do so much work on a somewhat dull subject, only to find that it is now going to be overtaken by another Inquiry. However, they did their work with such thoroughness that I have little doubt that the new Inquiry, which is to be announced to-day, will benefit considerably from the preparatory review of this strange subject of licensing planning which the Ramsay Willis Committee undertook between 1964 and 1965. Very sincerely, I congratulate the Government on this decision.
§ LORD GARDINERI am grateful to the Government, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, for what he has been good enough to say. I hope that this shows that it is still possible to do a little law reform from these Benches.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 2 agreed to.
§ House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendment.