HL Deb 08 December 1970 vol 313 cc772-4

2.36 p.m.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have reached a decision to turn the Army camp at Denbury, near Newton Abbot, into a prison.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM)

My Lords, the Home Office wish to develop this camp to provide a prison for between 450 and 500 prisoners not in the highest security category. A final decision will not be taken until the Government have received and considered the reply given by the planning authority to the recent application for planning clearance for this proposal.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. May I ask him two supplementary questions? Could not the additional numbers be dealt with by increasing the capacity at, say, Prince-town, on the one hand, which has recently had a large amount of money spent on it, and Haldon, on the other? Secondly, is it not a fact that Devon already has more than its fair share of national corrective institutions?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, we had a long debate last week on the Motion introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham. For five or six hours we debated overcrowding in prisons, and I do not want to try to shorten what was said then in a quick answer now. But I can assure the noble Lord that there is an imperative need for additional places, and Army camps are one source of supply. As regards the number of prisons in Devon, I understand that there are already three prisons in Devon, though this is not out of line with other counties. In Dorset, for example, there are four.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, can the noble Lord confirm that the Government are committed to the closing down of Princetown, which will be one less prison in Devon? Can he also say whether this new project at Denbury, if proceeded with, will be built with prison labour?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, the noble Lord's first question, I think, goes beyond the Question on the Order Paper; if he will put down a Question I will answer it. On his second point, I can confirm that initially the prisoners will be in the existing accommodation but prison labour will be used to build a permanent prison if planning permission is granted.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, will the noble Lord consider whether the noble Lord, Lord Clifford of Chudleigh, is right in saying that additional places can be provided at the other prisons he has mentioned; and, if so, will this be taken into account as well?-because we need them all.

LORD WINDLESHAM

Yes, my Lord, we are well aware of the need to make use of every available place in the existing prisons, and if the noble Lord had listened to some of the speeches made last Wednesday he would know that that has been done.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My Lords, is it not the fact that when the camp site at Denbury was first taken over by the Army an assurance was given to the local inhabitants that when the emergency was over the area would be returned to agricultural use, as it was before? Furthermore, does the noble Lord remember that when I last raised this subject in the House the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, put forward the excellent suggestion that this prison should be reserved only for the best people? Would he see that perhaps the noble Lord and his friends should have preference in this?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, I have no knowledge of any assurance that might have been given. I said in my initial Answer that this prison will be for prisoners not in the highest security categories. It is intended that it will be for prisoners in the "C" security category.

LORD WYNNE-JONES

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to bear in mind that it would be desirable to make this comprehensive and not selective?