THE LORD BISHOP OF CHESTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they propose to take over the suggestion for the increase of weight and size of commercial vehicles.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE, R.A.F. (LORD WINTER-BOTTOM)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are considering all the implications of the industry's proposals, which are mainly concerned with weight rather than size. The technical implications of the proposals, including safeguards against adverse effects, are being discussed with industry. As soon as there is something more positive to discuss there will be consultation with other interests, including those concerned with safety and amenity. If changes are then proposed there will be ample opportunity for public debate about them. The Government will make a final decision only in the light of full investigation and consultation, which will take many months.
The LORD BISHOP OF CHESTERMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his very full Answer, may I ask whether he can give us any indication of when it will be possible for the Government to tell us what they have in mind? I also thank the noble Lord for the assurance that there will be a full debate before decisions are reached.
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I can only repeat what I originally told the right reverend Prelate, that the inquiry will take many months.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, can the noble Lord also give further consideration to the question of size? I gather from my noble friend's remarks that only weight has been taken into consideration. Will he carefully consider the large volume of opinion that the size, and in particular the length of the vehicle, should not be increased any further than the present limits?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I agree that size enters into it, but only to a limited degree. It is proposed that the length of the vehicles should be increased by approximately half a metre to enable a full sized container to be carried in greater safety than at the moment.
§ LORD MOLSONMy Lords, will the Minister give an assurance that the Government still stand by the policy adumbrated in the White Paper, Cmnd. 3057 of 1966? If the noble Lord will turn to the introduction, he will find that the Government refer to all the ills which have already resulted from the motor car —congestion in the streets of our towns, the misery of the journey to work for commuters, noise, fumes, danger and so on—and it says at the end that the aim of a rational transport policy must be to solve this paradox. Will the Government give an assurance that they still stand by what they then wrote?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, not having the White Paper in front of of me I am afraid that I cannot give such an assurance.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government will bear in mind that the present road system of this country is simply not capable of bearing these enormous loads? They had very much better be carried by the railways.
LORD WINTER BOTTOMMy Lords, this is one of the factors which Her Majesty's Government will bear in mind.
§ LORD ERROLL OF HALEMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord will take into account axle weight rather than total weight, as under the new legislation this is a most important matter?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I seem to remember from an earlier debate that the whole question of plating depends upon this matter.
§ LORD FERRIERMy Lords, as one of those who would have added his name to the right reverend Prelate's letter if it had been worded slightly differently, may I ask whether the Government will consider the possibility of restricting the roads on which these larger vehicles may travel?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is another, but I think an intelligent question.
§ LORD AMULREEMy Lords, as one who signed the letter from the right reverend Prelate, may I ask whether the Government have made inquiries about experiences on the Continent; whether lorries of this size are being widely used in foreign countries and, if so, what experience has been gained?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, since on the Continent both larger lorries and lorry trains are used to a much greater extent than in this country, of course the information available from the Continent will be placed before the Committee studying the problem.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend what are the relationships between the suggested proposals and the Continental system which is being discussed, presumably, at the same time?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, if my noble friend will permit me I will write to him on this matter. Obviously the two systems must be interconnected as Britain moves closer to the Continent.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHESTERMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether, in the request that he has had for consideration, it is not only that articulated lorries should be increased from 32 to 44 tons but that there is also a request to increase the weight of a drawing lorry and a draw-bar trailer to 56 tons, and is this a matter which the Government have under consideration?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the right reverend Prelate is correct. The weight is perhaps of more importance 1382 than the consideration of size, and this point is under consideration.
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Oh! Rubbish!
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend—while I agree with practically everything that has been said here this afternoon—whether he will bear in mind the important contribution which the container traffic can make to the economy of this country and whether he will take care to see that the container trade is not killed?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, my noble friend is quite correct. The addition of half a metre to the maximum length of the vehicle is for the reason he mentioned.
§ LORD FERRIERMy Lords, if it is correct to assume that the weight problem is related to the bearing capacity of the roads and bridges, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will keep in mind that the length of vehicles is a serious matter in considering road safety?
§ LORD ARWYNMy Lords, is my noble friend aware of the fact that it is necessary, when these regulations are being discussed, to remember that the distance between one lorry and another is as important as the weight or size of the lorries? I sometimes travel 1,000 miles a week in the South-West, and this danger is constantly obvious when one is driving.