§ 2.40 p.m.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what they are doing about the allegations of waste and extravagance in the Hospital Service made by the Comptroller and Auditor General at the Annual Conference of the Association of Hospital Treasurers, as reported in The Times on November 14.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (BARONESS SEROTA)My Lords, The Comptroller and Auditor General made it clear to the Conference of the Association of Hospital Treasurers that in general the Hospital Service carries out its business economically. The shortcomings he referred to in his speech are being taken up by my Department with the hospital authorities concerned as they come to our notice through the activities of the Exchequer and Audit Department, the Department's own auditors and in other ways. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I will be discussing with the chairmen of Hospital Boards what more can be done to prevent defects of the kind mentioned by the Comptroller and Auditor General.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for that reply, and for the assurance that she and her colleagues in the Ministry of Health are taking steps to rectify this kind of waste and extravagance. May I ask whether the noble Baroness is aware that the Ministry for which she speaks is spending very large amounts of our money, and that the public at large deserve to be assured that they are getting value for these large sums which are being spent in the Health Service?
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, I am only too conscious of the costs of the National Health Service, and also the very great quality of service it provides to those who require its services. I would say to the noble Lord that if he had heard the whole of the speech from which his Question arises, he would have heard that the comments were the result of a very small sample of hospital authorities and that, overall, the Comptroller said that very efficient use was being made of our resources in the National Health Service.
§ LORD KILMANYMy Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree that it is particularly important at this time, when a large number of nurses think, rightly or wrongly, that they are being underpaid, that there should he no question of waste in the hospital services that does not receive prompt action from Her Majesty's Government to remedy it?
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, of course. That is why we are going to take the action that I have already described to the House.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is not some of the waste and extravagance due to the fact that much of the money is on an annual budget which has to be spent before the end of the financial year and, therefore, is sometimes spent unnecessarily? I do not say all the money, but some of it.
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, I cannot for a moment accept the words "waste and extravagance" in relation to the National Health Service.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, does not my noble friend think that there are millions of people in this country who have reason to be grateful for the fact that they have received value for money from the Hospital Service? Does not the noble Baroness recollect that in the old days people had to go to the local gentry in order to obtain what was called "a letter" before they could secure admission to hospital? Moreover, does not the noble Baroness think that the present system is very much better than its predecessor?
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, I must thank my noble friend for putting this matter in its proper perspective.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether she would kindly, when investigating the matter—as I am sure she will, because she has the reputation for doing things—look into the prescribing of drugs, particularly the prescribing of proprietary drugs, in those cases where there is an alternative which may be much cheaper?
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, the cost of drugs forms a high proportion of the cost of the National Health Service, and that is why it is a matter which my right honourable friend and I always have under active consideration.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, in the matter of excessive costs of nurses' uniforms, can my noble friend say whether a scale of charges for these uniforms has been laid down for the guidance of hospital treasurers?
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, I am not quite sure what my noble friend meant by "excessive costs of nurses' uniforms". The cost of uniforms varies greatly up and down the country. Again, this is a matter which has been the subject of an inquiry by a Working Party in order that we can provide, at reasonable cost, suitable garments—I may say suitable and attractive garments—for nurses to wear.
§ LORD FERRIERMy Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree that the cost of drugs is in fact less than the overall cost of laundry?
§ BARONESS SEROTANot off hand, my Lords.