§ 3.43 p.m.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, with permission, I should like to repeat a Statement being made by the Prime Minister in another place about the Civil List. This is a matter, because it raises questions of Supply, that primarily concerns another place, but I think it would be your Lordships' wish that I should repeat the Statement here. It reads as follows:
"Shortly after the Queen's accession, Parliament fixed the annual amount of the Consolidated Fund Grant to the Civil List, in Section 2 of the Civil List Act 1952, as £475,000.
"It was recognised that the value of this provision would, in real terms, be eroded by cost increases over the years ahead. The provision made by Parliament, following the Report of the Select Committee presided over by the then Chancellor therefore included a substantial margin, which would mean that in the early years a reserve could be built up and invested, to provide a fund from which any deficits which emerged could be met for a substantial period ahead. Section 9 and the relevant Schedule of the 1952 Act pro- 544 vided that this Supplementary Provision should run at a rate of £95,000. Of this up to £25,000 a year was to be available for provisions by the Sovereign to members of the Royal Family for whom Parliament had not specifically provided. The balance of not less than £70,000 was to provide a surplus for investment to provide for deficits which were expected to accrue later in the reign.
"Parliament rejected an Amendment by the then Opposition that the adequacy of the Civil List should be kept under review, by a reconsideration every ten years. Nevertheless, the matter has been kept closely under review.
"In the event, from 1952 to 1961 the Civil List as a whole, including the Class V Supplementary Provision, showed a surplus, though with wages and other costs steadily rising in the late 1950s and early 1960s the saving was very small in the last two years up to 1961. From 1962 onwards deficits were incurred, small at first but increasing steadily each year. Last year it became clear, not only that the Annual Grant including the Supplementary Provision was falling far short of the total costs for which it had been provided, but that the substantial reserve which had been built up from 1952 to 1961 was being reduced year by year. Last year it was estimated that the Reserve would be exhausted and the Civil List would therefore move into deficit by the end of 1970.
"Detailed discussions took place between Treasury officials and the Queen's advisers, as a result of which the Government informed the Queen's advisers that a new Select Committee would be appointed at the beginning of the next Parliament.
"There is no need for earlier action.
"The House, however, might like to be made aware of two facts. In the first place, there has been over recent years a progressive transfer of expenditure previously carried by the Royal Household out of the Civil List to funds provided by Departmental Votes. This began during the previous reign and, on the Select Committee's recommendation, approved by the House, this process was continued in 1952 when the remuneration of indus- 545 trial staff engaged on the maintenance of the Royal Palaces was taken into the Vote of the Ministry of Works. Since that time the process has been carried further. For example, over the past ten years or so the cost to the Civil List of expenditure on Royal Tours overseas and the cost of rail travel on royal functions in this country have been reimbursed out of Departmental Votes. In addition, Departmental Votes are carrying, to a figure of around £40,000 a year, certain expenses in relation to State entertainment, for example during State visits, which in previous reigns would have been borne on the Civil List.
"The second fact I would mention is that in the last six years there have been two investigations of the organisation of the Royal Household, one by the Organisation and Methods Division of the Treasury, and the second by an industrialist specially commissioned by the Queen's advisers. As a result, a number of improvements designed to save costs have been adopted.
"I hope the House will accept that in this important and, I do not need to stress, delicate matter, the Government have proceeded, in full discussion with the Queen's advisers, on a basis capable of dealing with the problem which is developing and of dealing with it in time, having regard both Ito increasing costs and to a proper regard for restraint in public expenditure."
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for repeating that Statement. In doing so, the noble Lord has said that the Civil List would move into deficit by the end of 1970. In view of that, and the fact that this Parliament could last until 1971, and also in view of the fact that, as I understand it, both the Conservative and the Liberal Parties would support the appointment of a Select Committee, would it not, in the light of the publicity given to this matter, be wiser to appoint such a Committee straight away?
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, I also thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement. May I support the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, in what he said about the appointment of a Committee imme- 546 diately or in the very near future. May I also ask this question? Can we not devise a better system than one which builds up reserves at the beginning of a reign and runs into deficit at the end? Surely this is a matter on which an immediate professional study should be undertaken, to see whether we cannot find something better.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, on the last point, this was the purpose of the over-provision in 1952. Happily, some reigns are longer than others; and we all hope that this reign will be a very long one. But no doubt the Select Committee, if appointed, in due course will go into this matter. I was asked the crucial question as to what is going to happen in 1970; and the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition was quite right in saying that it is not possible to say when this Parliament will end. The Annual Grant will, of course, continue at its existing level until new legislation is passed. Arrangements have been made to cover any Civil List deficits arising after the Civil List reserve is exhausted from funds available to Her Majesty from other sources than public funds. Although I can see the force in what both noble Lords have said, I think there is much to be said for leaving this matter to a Select Committee after the next General Election.