HL Deb 06 November 1969 vol 305 cc469-71
LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what advantage they see in perpetuating separate and differing systems for licensing bulls in England and Scotland.]

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, existing legislation requires that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food must issue licences for bulls kept in England and Wales, and the Secretary of State for those kept in Scotland. The two sets of licensing regulations are, however, broadly similar, and in most cases a new licence is granted automatically and without charge when a bull crosses the Border. I might add that my two right honourable friends, the Minister and the Secretary of State, have decided that it is now right to consider whether the statutory arrangements for sire licensing are still appropriate. We shall shortly be consulting the organisations concerned, and these consultations will cover the case for retaining, amending or abolishing the present system of licensing. Decisions on future policy will be taken in the light of these consultations.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for that most helpful and understanding reply, and also for the skill with which he chose the words "broadly similar", because that disguised the fact that there are a number of differences, particularly in the "B" licence in Scotland. May I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that my question is not a criticism of Scotland? If anything, it is a criticism of England, who are much more long-winded in the two draft regulations which we are now asked to approve. Can the noble Lord move so quickly that the Government could withdraw these two draft regulations now before the House, and perhaps re-lay them in the form of one consolidated regulation, which would be much simpler for all concerned not least the bulls?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord. The bulls have no difficulty here at all. As for the "B" licence, this reflects a difference between the situation in Scotland and that in England and Wales. As the noble Lord knows, there have not been sufficiently adequate milk records for animals in Scotland until recently, and it was therefore necessary to have an intermediate category of sires in Scotland. It is possible that the "B" licensing system will be dropped, but I understand that that will not help the noble Lord in the particular problems he has had.

LORD FORBES

My Lords, will the noble Lord ensure that when the licensing is reviewed more attention is paid to performance rather than to looks'? It is performance that counts.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, exactly. That is why I ventured to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood. It is because it was impossible to license bulls in Scotland on their performance that it was necessary to have this separate category.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that bureaucratic restrictions of this kind are never any deterrent to Scottish immigrants into England?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I should not have called these petty restrictions. I should have thought that the bulls in Scotland and in England looked much more handsome now, as a result of this licensing policy, than they did some years ago.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that, although smuggling in bulls has now ceased to be a serious matter for the policing of the Border, the way to get a common standard is to persuade the English, in this as in other matters, to raise their standard to the Scottish standard?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, in this matter, as distinct from others, I think the noble Earl is in error. In the first place, there is no advantage at all in smuggling a bull across the Border if in any case he is not able to carry out his natural functions.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that there is little doubt that the bulls are able to perform their natural functions, provided they can move freely, which requires a licence. The real answer is to get the English breed societies to accept Scottish standards on conformation.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I do not wish to pursue this subject, but if a farmer wishes to use an unlicensed bull he can do that, Border or no Border.

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