HL Deb 22 May 1969 vol 302 cc461-4
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether Her Britannic Majesty's Ambassador in South Africa, or any of the Foreign Office staff, have reported how many ships called at, or passed by, the Cape of Good Hope on their way to or from the United Kingdom, which would otherwise have gone through the Suez Canal, during a recent convenient period; and, if so, whether they will state the number.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD CHALFONT)

My Lords, the information which the noble Lord seeks has not been the subject of reporting by Her Majesty's Ambassador, but the Shipping Intelligence Branch of the Board of Trade made a study in 1967 of the number of United Kingdom registered ships using the Cape route on random dates before and after the closure of the Suez Canal. To this have been added regularly details of United Kingdom-registered ships continuing to use South African ports. Not surprisingly, these figures show a marked increase. It is not, however, possible to be precise about the number of ships whose use of the Cape route is solely attributable to the closure of the Canal. But if it will be helpful to the noble Lord, I will send him such statistics and information as we have.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. Is he aware that some estimates, which seem to me to have credibility, suggest that some 10,000 vessels which would otherwise have gone through Suez have passed both ways round the Cape. In those circumstances, is it the case that we enrich the South African economy, we enrich, and even perhaps support ourselves, yet some moral issue prevents us from helping to defend the said ports?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, I cannot, of course, accept the philosophical basis upon which the noble Lord's supplementary question is based. The question of how many vessels have passed around the Cape that would otherwise have gone through the Canal is very difficult to determine. There are certain statistics but it is quite impossible to say how many of those ships would in other circumstances, have passed through the Suez Canal. But, as I say, without necessarily agreeing with the assumptions upon which the noble Lord's question is based, I will let him have the statistics that are available to us.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. But whatever the number, is there a moral issue involved?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, I do not think that it would be appropriate at this moment to go into the moral or political issues concerned with the closure of the Suez Canal. The fact is that while the Canal is closed ships have to use other routes.

LORD SEGAL

My Lords, could my noble friend at the same time elicit information about the number of ships drawing too large a draught to permit them to use the Suez Canal, even if the Canal were reopened?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, this is piling hypothesis upon hypotheses. I think that we are going very wide of the original Question. But if the noble Lord cares to put down another Question I will of course answer it.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, when supplying the information which he has promised to my noble friend, would the noble Lord be able to give some indication of the relationship between civil ships and warships; whether they were refitted in South African ports; and also whether they include the ships presently employed on the Beira patrol?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, again I think that we are going wide of the original Question. But I recognise the relevance and importance of what the noble Lord has said and I will bear it in mind when providing this information.

LORD STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, I understand that the noble Lord has undertaken to make certain information available to my noble friend. Can the noble Lord make that information available to the House as a whole?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, I will certainly bear that request in mind, and will discuss it with the usual channels and with my colleagues. If we can make the information available to the House we will of course do so.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, the noble Lord's Question asked for certain figures. The Minister says that he has certain figures, but in the course of his original Answer, and his replies to supplementary questions he has carefully avoided mentioning a single one. Can he not give the House some idea of the increase in the number of ships going round the Cape?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, the figures that we have are a mass of statistics of various kinds from which people can extract what information particularly interests them. The figures that I can give now, which I think may be of interest to the House, are that during the three months, March, April and May, 1967, prior to the closure of the Suez Canal, the number of United Kingdom registered ships which called at South African ports was 219. Over the same period in 1968, after the closure of the Suez Canal, the number was 669. But I make the point that these are only United Kingdom registered ships and we have no organised information regarding ships other than those registered in the United Kingdom.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it is absolutely impossible for any Government to take a count of the ships that pass round the Cape? They may be 12 miles away from the Cape, and it is impossible to count them. Is he further aware that a great many of our troubles with the Suez, apart from the Israeli war, have arisen from the Tory Government's attack on the Suez Canal in 1950?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for his intervention which was, as always, extremely helpful. Of course, as he says, it would be quite impossible for anyobdy to count the number of ships passing round the Cape, as a number of them, as he very wisely says, pass at a distance at which it would be impossible even to seen them, much less to count them. But there are some figures and I will make them available.

LORD FERRIER

My Lords, would it help the noble Lord if the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, put down a Question for Written Answer?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, that would be helpful, and if the noble Lord will do so, I will see that this Question is answered fully.

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