HL Deb 14 May 1969 vol 302 cc113-8

2.35 p.m.

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that foreign manufacturers of cars and other petrolengined road vehicles are designing them so as greatly to reduce, if not to eliminate, the pollution of the air by carbon monoxide and other colourless exhaust gases; and when they intend to amend the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations to ensure that all such vehicles manufactured in this country in future will be similarly inoffensive in that respect.]

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND (LARD HUGHES)

My Lords, the Ministry of Transport are cooperating with other European countries in drawing up a standard for emissions from petrol engines. I would point out that medical research has failed to show any ill-effects from the levels of carbon monoxide experienced in city streets in this country, and other colourless exhaust gases are offensive only by reason of their smell.

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for taking time off from his Scottish duties to answer this Question. Is he aware that the medical research that has been conducted does not appear to have extended to concentrations of vehicles for long periods in traffic jams, where of course the pollution is greatest? Is he also aware that a considerable improvement in the exhaust situation could be achieved, at low cost, by carburettor adjustment, and that that would effect a saving in fuel consumption?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, the noble Lord's first supplementary question was whether I was aware of the effect in congested city streets. The assumption in the question is wrong. Research has been made in that field also, and the answer which I have given in relation to carbon monoxide applies there also. So far as the second part of the question is concerned, about the use of devices, I may say that this is the sort of thing which is being investigated, and I would point out that what the Americans are requiring in their 1970 regulations is different. In cars which are being exported to America we are already conforming to the American requirements. If we adopt this other system we should be m the dangerous position of having two completely different systems for dealing with the same problem. I think, therefore, that it would be better that we should wait and see what recommendations emerge from the Working Party, and find out whether it is possible to do something which would meet European and American requirements with the same devices.

EARL HOWE

My Lords, is the noble Lord also aware that the automatic gearbox, due to its transmission drag, results in better burning of the fuel at idling speeds. Many people in this country still prefer a manual box, but it is difficult for a manual gearbox to attain these standards. I wonder whether that point has been considered.

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, I would suggest that that must depend also on individual taste. I believe that nowadays more people are driving with automatic gearboxes. I do so myself, just because I happen to prefer it. This use will grow, or otherwise, according to public demand.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that over the years, Members have been assured by Ministers, of both Parties, that there is no danger from inhaling certain toxic substances, including tobacco? But over the years those spokesmen have changed their minds. Would he bear that in mind in relation to this question?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, I have realised that Ministers at their peril fail to bear in mind anything that my noble friend says. I will certainly bear in mind what she says.

LORD GIFFORD

My Lords, is this not a question not only of risks to health but of the quality of life in our cities and crowded streets? Will not the Government look most seriously at all possible suggestions for reducing pollution in this way?

LORD HUGHES

Yes, my Lords. But what the Government and the public have to balance up at the end of the day is what they are prepared to pay for improving the quality of life.

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, will the Government press on with the study of this problem and report to Parliament as soon as they can what conclusions are reached by this international study?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, I think the results of the international study are expected shortly. I will draw the attention of my right honourable friend to the noble Lord's request that these should be made public.

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that dieselengined vehicles can still frequently be seen on the roads polluting the air with dark smoke; and what further action they propose to take to stop this nuisance effectively.]

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, these are mainly overloaded or badly maintained goods vehicles. My right honourable friend the Minister of Transport has set up plating and testing arrangements to stop overloading and to improve maintenance standards.

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, I am most grateful also for that Answer. Is the noble Lord aware that independent experts are critical of the recent B.S.I. specification for dieselengined vehicles and consider that it is not tight enough, and that an effective way of really getting rid of the dark smoke from diesel vehicles would be to tighten up the specification, and also to have more inspectors to enforce the regulations?

LORD HUGHES

Well, my Lords, this again is a question of where the balance of advantage lies. Noble Lords are constantly pressing the Government to have fewer civil servants and yet finding reasons for employing more civil servants. It is most difficult to get these sums to equate. I would point out, however, that manufacturers have agreed to implement a British standard which will minimise still further smoke emission from new diesel-engined vehicles, and given proper maintenance by the operator we should then have a completely satisfactory result.

So far as the use of additional inspectors is concerned, there will be the annual check under the new system, apart from the occasional roadside checks. There are several thousand prosecutions each year. We do not want too many prosecutions, and the whole purpose of this machinery is to get people to do the job properly and make certain that we do not need to have prosecutions. We think that the improvement in the new arrangements, the new equipment which manufacturers are putting on new vehicles, together with these roadside checks, should all combine to produce a still more satisfactory state of affairs in future.

LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the roadside checks have a considerable value in reducing this unpleasant and dangerous emission of black smoke? Could the Ministry of Transport, in cooperation with the Home Secretary, ask all chief constables throughout the country to institute a campaign, say over one month during the year, so that these checks are generally applied throughout the country? Experience has shown that this is the best method of catching the bad operators in this particular field. Is the noble Lord aware that this was done about ten years ago, very successfully, and that it might well be repeated?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, I think the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, is a useful one, and I shall be very happy to bring it to the attention of my right honourable friend.

LORD VIVIAN

My Lords, the noble Lord has said that this dark smoke emanating from vehicles is chiefly due to overloading, but does he appreciate that I, and I am sure several other noble Lords also, have driven behind such vehicles which are diesel-powered when they are completely empty and emitting an appalling amount of smoke?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, I think perhaps the noble Lord missed the last few words of my Answer, and I will repeat it. I said, "to stop overloading and to improve maintenance standards". The emission of smoke can be caused by one or other or both; overloading or bad maintenance.

LORD VIVIAN

I apologise, my Lords.

LORD RAGLAN

My Lords, would not the simple remedy for this problem be to see that the lorries discharge their exhaust vertically into the air, instead of horizontally along the ground?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, I seem to have heard that question before, and I believe that the answer is that things which are heavier than air tend to fall down anyway.

LORD RAGLAN

My Lords, does not my noble friend agree that that answer—which indeed has been given before in this House—seems to many noble Lords not to be common sense? It is surely better that the exhaust should be driven up into the air instead of along the ground where eventually it finds its way into the air. Does not my noble friend agree that sending it up into the air is better than letting it run along the ground?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, if one were quite certain that it was going to run along the ground, there would be no need to worry about it, unless one was in the habit of lying on the ground. If one was equally certain that if it was sent up in the air it was going to stay up in the air, again one need not worry about it unless one was about ten feet tall. Most of us are between these two extremes, and it is in an attempt to deal with that situation that we are trying to find an answer.

LORD TREFGARNE

My Lords, can the noble Lord confirm that the annual checks to which he referred will include a measurement of the amount of smoke issued by the particular vehicles?

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, that is what I understand.

EARL HOWE

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in some States in America the State laws require exhaust gases of diesel-engined vehicles to be discharged above cab level, and that in South Africa they are experimenting on the same basis? I wonder whether we could not learn something from these experiments in South Africa and the United States.

LORD HUGHES

My Lords, I have no doubt that we could learn many things from both South Africa and the United States of America. Whether they are all advantageous, I should not care to speculate.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My Lords, is it not a fact that the use of platinum as a catalyst is the answer to both these problems?

LORD HUGHES

Perhaps.

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