§ 3.7 p.m.
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how regularly boy or youth recruits for the Army are compelled to attend church parades, and whether they have the option of choosing not to attend or of attending a church service of their own choice.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE, R.A.F. (LORD WINTER-BOTTOM)My Lords, recruits in Junior Soldier Units, such as Army Apprentice Colleges or Junior Leaders' Regiments, are required to declare their religion and to attend religious services of the denomination to which they have declared they belong. Normally they attend religious services once a week, or less frequently at the discretion of their commanding officers.
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, may I take it from the noble Lord's Answer that in fact a number of these boys can be compelled to attend religious services, even if they do not desire to?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, the boys are in a position to say that they have ceased to belong to a religious denomination, and after one month they can then be classified as atheists or agnostics and cease to attend services.
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, does my noble friend appreciate that a number of boys are not necessarily agnostic or atheist but do not desire to attend service; and seeing that we have abolished compulsory attendance at church services for adults should this not also apply to the young ones?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, this is a fine theological question. Within an armed force a young man may choose to be an agnostic or Church of England, but if he decides to belong to the Church of England he must attend church service.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that when I was in 1265 the Services I used to prefer to go to church to get relaxation rather than do the dirty jobs in the barracks that were given to us if we did not go to church?
§ LORDWINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as always, my noble friend has a firm grasp of reality.
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, may I further ask my noble friend whether he means that those who do not attend church are then subject to other routine duties, such as cleaning out latrines?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, that is another question, but cleaning out latrines is a very old-fashioned duty.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend, looking at this matter quite objectively, whether, if a boy is registered as an agnostic or an atheist at the age of 14 or 15, when he has not had time seriously to think about these matters, his future is prejudiced, perhaps, in some field of labour?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, nobody registers him as such; he registers himself. The parents, of course, have a view and are consulted, but it is up to the young man himself to decide to which religious group he belongs.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he, at the age of 14 or 15, knew all the answers to life?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, even at my present age—no.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that he is largely the man he is because of compulsory chapel attendance at Charter-house?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, as the noble Lord knows, Charterhouse is somewhat more permissive. I do not believe that one has to attend twice a day nowadays.
§ LORD MAELORMy Lords, may I give my experience? I am a Scotch Baptist—and, incidentally, Scotch Baptists are not to be found in Scotland: they are in Wales.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords, would the noble Lord give way? I am sure the noble Lord is giving the House a lot of valuable information, but if he; could phrase it in an interrogatory fashion he will find an easier passage.
§ LORD MAELORMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that there are no Scotch Baptists in Scotland; they are in Wales? But when I declared myself as a Scotch Baptist I was told "No religion—C. of E."