§ 2.48 p.m.
§ LORD MAELOR rose, to call attention to Welsh Affairs; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it is now some years, I believe, since your Lordships' House discussed Welsh Affairs. It is particularly appropriate that we should do so this year, since the Principality will be well in the public eye as a result of the forthcoming Investiture of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. That historical event is going to put Wales definitely on the map, for it is estimated that about 500 million people throughout the world will have an opportunity to witness the event. The vast majority of those viewers will realise for the first time that Wales is a separate country and that the Welsh are a separate nation. It is surprising how few people appreciate this fact.
§ That ignorance is very pronounced on the Continent. When I visit various foreign countries I find that the people there believe that Wales is a part of England. I have found that to be stated and believed wherever I have been, except in Southern Ireland—and I emphasise Southern Ireland, my Lords. I was there three years ago, and one of the natives asked me, "What part of England do you come from?". I told him, "I don't come from England; I am a Welshman. I come from Wales". "Well," he said, "I am sorry for you in Wales". I said, "Why are you sorry for us?". "Well," he said, "You are nearer the buggers than we are". I do not know what he would have said this afternoon if he could have seen me surrounded by them.
§
I should like to remind your Lordships once again—I know that I am repeating myself, I have done so on two or three occasions and I see no fault in that. I follow the good example of St. Paul—and he was not an Irishman—who said:
To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
We have all the essentials and all the characteristics of a nation. We have our own country, a country so well described by a Welsh couplet. Notice the vowels, the alliteration and the music of these words:
"Pa wlad wedi'r siarad sydd Mor Iân a Chymru lonydd?
1183
Roughly translated into less musical words that means:
What country, when all is said, Is so beautiful as peaceful Wales?
Then we have our own language, as I have just proved, a language that is only spoken in two places, in Wales and in Heaven. I remember that when I mentioned this on the last occasion the noble and gallant Field Marshal Lord Montgomery said to me, in the tea-room, "Why don't you all speak English?" I am sure of one thing: the noble and gallant Field Marshal will be able to pronounce the name of every village in North Africa, but I would defy him to pronounce the name of that tiny village in Anglesey known as Llanfairpwllgwyn-gyllgogerychwyrndrobwll-llantysiliogogo-goch.
§ We have our own literature; Welsh books are published regularly. Next month there will be published for the first time in Welsh a book on Parliament. I will not divulge the name of the author or else the demand for the book will far exceed the supply. The number of Welsh readers, unfortunately, has dwindled during recent years, with the result that Welsh publishers find it difficult to make a living by publishing Welsh books. And in this connection, believing, as I do, that my words will be read by the Secretary of State for Wales to-morrow morning, and I hope by my compatriot the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I should like to make a special plea to them, if it is at all possible, to increase the grant for publishing Welsh books. Knowing the Secretary of State as I do, and knowing also of his love of Wales and for everything Welsh, I am sure that he will give a sympathetic hearing to my appeal this afternoon. Lastly, we have our own traditions and way of life.
§ Before I embark on the most important part of my speech, I should like to remind your Lordships of the debt Parliament owes to Wales. Wales has produced some of the most brilliant Parliamentarians of all times. One cannot ramble along the corridors of the Palace of Westminster without being reminded of this. The first and foremost was Oliver Cromwell. His name was not Cromwell; his name was Williams, and he hailed from South Wales. He assumed the name of Cromwell out of respect for 1184 his famous ancestor Sir Thomas Cromwell. But he constantly reverted to Williams, and the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, told me the other day that whenever he signed any family document he always signed as Williams—and the noble Lord should know because he told me that he comes from the family. If that is so, I am only surprised that he is so comfortable among Tories. Then we have the immortal W. E. Gladstone. I am not going to claim him as a Welshman, but I would remind your Lordships that his home was in Wales and it was there that he received his inspiration.
§ I must also mention the famous David Lloyd-George. I am sure that the story, "From Llanystumdwy to Downing Street" would read far more romantically than even the story, "From log cabin to White House". I am pleased to see from the list of speakers that this afternoon his grandson is going to make his maiden speech. I am only hoping that the voice of his grandfather will be reverberating through this Chamber when he stands on his feet, because I am sure all will agree that the greatest orators of all time in the House of Commons were two Welshmen, David Lloyd-George and Nye Bevan.
§ Two Welsh Speakers have occupied the Speaker's Chair in the House of Commons. I cannot recall that a Welshman ever occupied the Woolsack, so some Prime Minister has slipped up in the past; but not the present one; because I contend that one of the most brilliant lawyers who ever occupied the Woolsack is sitting on it now—at any rate he was a short time ago.
§ We also provided Britain with the greatest King who ever sat on the Throne; I am referring to King Henry VIII. It is a great pity that that Monarch's achievements have been obscured by his matrimonial exercises. But I contend that Henry VIII, who could speak Welsh as plainly and as distinctly as I did just now, is the greatest King that ever sat on the British Throne.
§ I want to pass on to what has been achieved for Wales by the present Government. I maintain that the present Government have done more for Wales than any Government in history. I am sure of it. And in this respect I want to utter a word of warning to my fellow 1185 countrymen. I hope that no one in the Principality will be involved in the twaddle, "Wilson must go," because if Wilson goes—and I am speaking to my fellow countrymen—the Tories come in; make no mistake about that. Now I want to ask a question. What has Wales ever received from the Tories? I can answer the question: ruin, destruction, poverty.
§ LORD MAELORYes. Can we ever forget Tonypandy? Can we ever forget that strike in Bethesda, North Wales? Can we ever forget the fact that every man and woman in Maerdy, in the Rhondda Valley, and every man and woman in Brynmawr were on the dole—every man and woman. That was under Toryism. That is why indeed a Tory M.P. is a novelty in Wales. If I were organising a bazaar I would ask a Tory M.P. to open it, because the crowds would come there to see the strange animal; he is a novelty in Wales. So I am hoping that my countrymen, whoever else does, will not turn their backs on this Government who have done so much for them. The present Government have done a number of things, and the name of Harold Wilson will be associated with Welsh history for all time, for he was the first Prime Minister to institute the Welsh Office and give the Secretary of State for Wales a seat in the Cabinet.
What have the Government done? I shall mention only three things briefly, because many of my compatriots want to speak. I should like to mention leasehold reform. I do so advisedly. Those of us who have been Members of the House of Commons will never forget how assiduously Mr. George Thomas, now Secretary of State for Wales, fought, and fought hard, for leasehold reform. It was a struggle for him. It was a struggle because the Tories believed in the leasehold system. This system was most pernicious in South Wales, but we had instances of it even in North Wales. It can only be described as a damnable system in the middle of the 20th century. The present Government introduced a measure on leasehold reform which has freed the leaseholder from the claws of the ground landlord. The leaseholder has not to worry that one day his home, in which his father lived before him, will be taken away from him.
1186 I turn now to the Government's industrial policy in relation to Wales. Unfortunately, for some years unemployment has been at a higher percentage in Wales than in the rest of the Kingdom. That has been due to the decline of the four major industries: coalmining, agriculture, steelworks and transport. Confronted by, this situation the Government declared practically the whole of Wales to be a development area. What a blessing that has proved! Due to the special grants which arc available to industrialists who a-e prepared to go to development areas, there has been a great demand for industrial development certificates from industrialists who wish to establish themselves in the Principality. Last year alone, 280 applications for certificates were approved by the Board of Trade. These covered 9 million square feet of new factory space and created 18,000 new jobs. If we consider the last three years together, we find that 24 million square feet of new factory space has been approved. Let me express it in this way: as much factory space has been approved in three years of a Labour Government as was approved in eight years of Tory government. That is quite natural, of course, because we have always thought that a Labour Government could do things at least twice as well as a Tory Government.
Let me remind your Lordships also of what this meant in terms of advance factories. Last year 15 advance factories were let in Wales; and this year, up to the present time, four have been let. That is approaching an average of two brand new advance factories a month in Wales during last year and the first three months of this year. As your Lordships know, the trend for years has been for industrialists to go to the Midlands and around London. That trend was intensified when it was believed that we were about to enter the Common Market. I am sure of this: that those industrialists would never have considered establishing themselves in Wales had Wales not been declared a development area. The industrialists thereby benefited themselves financially by going there.
Those factories will cause diversification of labour. There will be jobs to suit all types of worker, both male and female. For far too long Wales has depended on two or three major industries, every one of them unsuitable for female 1187 labour. That relates particularly to coal. If your Lordships want to know the story of coal in South Wales you should read the book recently published by my right honourable friend Mr. James Griffiths. You will find it a most interesting account of the collieries in South Wales. Thus, through the Welsh Office, the Government have brought about the beginning of a new Industrial Revolution in Wales, and as this new Industrial Revolution develops we shall see new prosperity following in its wake.
When Welsh affairs were discussed in another place about a fortnight ago I found, on reading Hansard, that the Liberal Member, Mr. Emlyn Hooson, had made an extraordinary pronouncement. I do not believe he meant what he said—he said it in the course of an interruption—but this is what it was:
I should give up every grant for a factory in return for a first-class transport system."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 22/4/69; col. 375.]What is the use of a costly new transport system if you have not the people to use the system? The depopulation of Montgomeryshire, which is represented in another place by the honourable Member, has been most acute for the last thirty years. It has been more pronounced in Montgomeryshire than in any other part of Wales. What has caused people to leave that beautiful county? They have gone in search of work—the same reason that prompted a million of them to leave Wales between the wars. Now this Government are reversing that trend and have established a series of advance factories to draw those people back home. I thank the Government for their efforts in this direction.I cannot anticipate what other speakers will talk about, but so far as this Government are concerned in respect of Wales I wish to mention just one other subject; that is, housing. This Government, through the Welsh Office, have broken all previous records in the provision of homes for the people of Wales. In the course of the last four years about 90,000 houses have been built in the Principality. As we all know, human nature being what it is people are loath to leave their homes, even to live in another part of the same parish. I am therefore pleased to know that the Government 1188 propose to give new and higher grants to local authorities to enable them to help house owners to improve their properties and still be able to live there—to provide modern amenities for old houses which basically are sound in construction. I am sure that the present Secretary of State for Wales is greatly alive to this matter.
This morning I had the pleasure of meeting the Wales football team, and on behalf of my colleagues from Wales I was presumptuous enough to wish them every success at Wembley this evening. I was telling your Lordships just now that there is a difference between Wales and England. Some people would question this. Good Lord! they are likely to be made very much alive to it at Wembley tonight. I want Wales to win, and win handsomely.
§ LORD BRECONMy Lords, would the noble Lord also include the Welsh Rugby team that is going to New Zealand this month?
§ LORD MAELOREverything and everyone that comes from Wales and does well. I know nothing about rugby, but I was pleased to meet Wynne Davies this morning.
I am privileged to open this debate, but I must ask other speakers—because like the rest of you, even a Welshman has to eat, and I have also been asked to do a programme on T.V.—to forgive me if I miss one or two of you. I apologise in advance. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
§ 3.11 p.m.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, your Lordships will be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Maelor, for having put down this Motion and giving us a chance to debate Welsh affairs. He described most of your Lordships by what I thought was a highly unparliamentary term at the beginning of his speech, but he overlooked the fact that there are at least 13 of us, and one or two others that I can see in the House, who are on the same side as he is so far as our extraction is concerned, and who certainly cannot be described by that term. In fact, it is one of the best lists of speakers—certainly the longest in quantity, if not highest in quality—that we have ever had in a Welsh debate; and for that reason I am sure he is pleased with his Motion. May 1189 I take the opportunity of saying how much I also look forward to hearing the maiden speech of the noble Earl, Lord Lloyd-George of Dwyfor.
The noble Lord gave us a witty oration. It was, I thought, a good demagogic performance; but he really was going a little too far in making such suggestions as he did that the Conservative Party had done nothing for Wales and that the Socialist Party had done everything. I do not believe for one minute that anybody in this House really believes that.—Indeed, he was not altogether accurate. If I recollect correctly, the Tonypandy Riots were in 1911, when the Liberal Party were in power, and the biggest increase ever in unemployment in Wales took place between 1929 and 1931 when his own Party were in power. I should also say that it is extremely unfair of him not to recognise the achievements of my noble friends Lord Brooke of Cumnor and Lord Brecon, when they were responsible for Welsh affairs; but my noble friend, who is speaking later, is well able to defend himself
I should like to speak of the problems of Wales in a rather more constructive and less Party political spirit. Like the noble Lord, I recognise that this is a very good year, a very suitable year, to have this debate, in view of the Investiture of the Prince of Wales, and I am sure that all noble Lords on this side of the House would like to join with me in sending our loyal best wishes to His Royal Highness Prince Charles in this historic year. Whether he emerges from his stay at Aberystwyth as a Welsh Nationalist, or whether the Welsh Nationalists come to recognise some of the true worth of this young man's character, does not really matter; but what I hope and believe is that the period he is spending at Aberystwyth will strengthen the already strong ties between Wales and the Monarchy, and in particular the close ties that have always existed between Wales and the Prince of Wales.
There can be no doubt at all when we discuss the affairs of Wales that the dominating issue must be that of employment. Many other subjects are of great interest and many other subjects are of great importance, but they are dominated, as indeed was the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Maelor, by the importance 1190 of employment. The run-down of the coal industry is now familiar to all of us, and in the last day or two we have seen some of the possible repercussions of manpower reductions in the steel industry. There is the threat to jobs at Ebbw Vale, where, according to the Western Mail, at least half the plants and 4,000 men's jobs may shortly be lost. These have been the industries on which Wales has depended for so long, and their run-down has now caused great problems.
Certainly the Government, as the noble Lord, Lord Maelor, claimed, can boast that they have spent a great deal of money in trying to solve the problem. The figures given in the Report for Wales for 1968 are: Investment Grants £38 million; Loans and General Purpose Grants £10 million; Building Grants £7.8 million; Regional Employment Premium and S.E.T. Premium £14 million; and Training Grants £ .3 million. That is a total of over £70 million in the year 1968, without taking into account any of the cost of building advanced factories, which is not given in the Paper. Certainly if money is the criterion alone, then the Government deserve their due; but surely we must relate it to the results achieved. The Secretary of State has proudly claimed to have created 53,000 new jobs in the past three years: in other words, an average of about 17,000 jobs r year, at a cost of £70 million in the year. That is £4,000 per new job created, without taking into account the cost of the advance factories. That is why some of us want to look at this policy closely to see whether the cost effectiveness is really correct.
In the process, Wales has been carved up into a number of different areas of varying priority. There are the special development areas in the coal mining districts; there is the remainder of the development area, which includes most of Wales except the coastal belt of South Wales and a small coastal strip in North Wales. Now we have another area, the grey area, as a result of the Government's conclusions on the Hunt Committee Report. It is not yet definitely outlined, but it is somewhere in South East Wales. Then we have the rest of Wales, without any priority.
Despite all this outpouring of money, despite all this scheduling of different 1191 areas, still the rate of unemployment remains stubbornly above that of England. The total numbers in employment are shrinking, and, more serious still, among those unemployed the number who are unemployed for more than eight weeks is beginning to rise. That is why we have to look critically at the Government's achievements and ask ourselves whether this is the best method of attracting industry to Wales. But my noble friend Lord Brecon, whose knowledge is unrivalled both in Government and in industry in Wales, is speaking later in the debate, and I do not want to pursue this particular subject any further, interesting as it is.
I would just make a few remarks on a particular area that interests me, and that is the state of the mining valleys where the population is dense and where the most serious effects are seen of the rundown of the coal and steel industries. I have no quarrel with the underlying Government policy, which lays stress on the importance of developing new industrial areas at the mouths of the valleys. Certainly, Aberdare would be in a much more serious position without the industrial estate of Hirwaun.
As I am mentioning Hirwaun, may I take this opportunity of paying a sincere tribute to Mr. Michael Sobell, who founded his fortunes on the industrial estate at Hirwaun and built up that magnificent radio and allied firm which is now part of G.E.C.? He has already given a large sum of money to help those in need at Aberdare, and he has also given over £330,000 for a sports centre. Equally, the Treforest Trading Estate has provided jobs for a great many workers from the valleys, and so in due time, I hope, will the new development schemes at Llantrisant.
But I would just make two points. The first is that, though I fully support the policy of these growth points at the mouths of the valleys, I hope that aid will still be given to individual enterprises that are prepared to put up factories in the valleys themselves. There is not a great number of suitable sites, but they are coming forward more rapidly now. The Derelict Land Unit of the Welsh Office is doing what I consider to be a splendid job, with the enthusiastic support of the local councils, and already 1192 schemes are in hand and sites are becoming available. So I hope that the overall policy will still allow the encouragement of industrial development in the valleys themselves.
The second point is that no industrialist will ever want to come to the valleys, nor will the workers there be able to travel to the new growth areas, unless we have better road and rail communications. It is possible to envisage a future in which the valleys would become largely residential areas, with the workers who live there travelling daily to their work in the industrial estates. But anybody who has had the misfortune to travel on any of the roads in a rush hour will find such a picure quite impossible to imagine at the moment. Good communications, both rail and road, are essential to the future well-being of these valleys.
I see with pleasure that the noble Lord, Lord Heycock, is to speak later in this debate. No one knows more than he about education in Wales. He is the chairman of what is, in my opinion, one of the best local education authorities in the country, and not only in the field of formal education; it is also a very generous authority when it comes to supporting voluntary activities.
I should like to make a short comment on the Gittins Report on Primary Education in Wales. I do not want to comment on those parts of the Report which substantially endorse the Plowden Report on English Primary Education, but there are two respects in which the Gittins Report differs from Plowden. The first is a little outside the subject of this debate, but I cannot help expressing my sympathetic approval of the Committee's recommendations on religious education. I was pleased to find that they had the same doubts as I expressed in the debate on religious education, which we had in November, 1967, about the strict statutory requirements both for religious instruction and for the act of worship in the primary schools. Of course their recommendations on that score received much more publicity than the fact that they also stressed that religious education should continue to hold a significant place in the primary school, and should be fully integrated in terms of a modern approach within the school programme.
1193 I found myself much less in sympathy with the Committee's recommendations on the place of Welsh in the primary schools. In my opinion, it is totally unrealistic to endeavour to create a bilingual nation through the schools. A language lives, or dies, in the home, and if it is not used at home no amount of schooling will ever achieve success. At one point the Gittins Report seems to realise this, and at page 239 it reads:
Where neither family nor linguistic background support Welsh the chances "—those are the chances of learning fluent Welsh—are very much poorer. As far as we can judge, the influence of the home is the major one.I would agree with that.But, despite that statement, the Committee endorsed the principle of fully bilingual education and recommended the progressive introduction of Welsh as a medium of instruction. To teach a second language to bilingual standards requires very considerable time and effort, and in my view what is required in teaching any language at primary school stage is to give a grounding to familiarise children with its basic sounds and meanings, to lay a foundation on which they can later study it in depth should they so wish. I am certainly not in favour of abolishing the teaching of Welsh in primary schools. I believe it to be generally desirable that those who live in Wales should have some knowledge of the Welsh language and Welsh literature. But I doubt the practicability of, "a positive policy of bilingualism in primary schools."
I think that our policy should be to meet parents' wishes, so far as possible. It seems to me right that if Welsh-speaking parents wish their children to be taught in Welsh it should be so arranged. Equally, it seems right that English-speaking parents who wish their children to be educated in English should have their way. When it comes to teaching a second language, then I believe that the local education authority is the best judge of the requirements of parents in its own area. I hope that Welsh will normally be a subject taught at primary schools, but not with the aim of complete bilingualism, and allowing time and attention to be given to other subpects, and maybe to other languages.
1194 If money is to be spent, there seem to me to be other and more important priorities, both in the educational field and in other fields. One comes to mind in the Report on the Ely Hospital. That was a horrifying Report, which came as a great shock to all of us who are proud of the achievements in Wales; end I must say that I was especially moved by the description of Villa 2—the villa where male children were lodged. But horrifying as these revelations were, I think we should be very chary of putting all the blame on the staff. Just to read of the conditions at Ely Hospital, aid of the habits of some of its inmates, gives one some idea of the terrible strain there must be on the staff who give long service in these institutions. It is very difficult for anybody who has not seen them and experienced them really to appreciate what those conditions are.
For example, the Report criticises the lack of toys in Villa 2, but I am told that immense quantities of toys have been supplied over the years, only to be smashed up as soon as they arrived. In addition, the fact that 50 children were crammed into this one ward meant that it was always the most subnormal children who set the pace, and that others who might much better have been lodged by themselves were influenced by the less normal. I should be more inclined to lay the blame on the community at large, on ourselves, who are prepared to close our eyes until these conditions are brought to our notice, and are unwilling to spend the money required on the provision of better buildings and better facilities.
Unfortunately, there still seem to be at large in Wales a number of people who, in my opinion, would be much better shut up in one or other of these institutions. I refer to those concerned with the recent outcrop of bomb outrages. I am sure that all of us deplore the use of violence for political ends, but while it is just possible to understand the misguided motives of those who blow up pipelines, it can only be described as the work of a criminal lunatic to send explosive parcels to the police through the post. All I hope is that those who are responsible will be found before any fatal injury occurs.
My Lords, I end by drawing the Government's attention to a very interesting opinion poll which appeared in the 1195 Western Mail of Wednesday, September 25, 1968. This analysed the voting intentions of the people interviewed, and showed that the Labour Party would receive 36 per cent. of the votes, the Conservative Party 30 per cent., the Liberals 10 per cent. and Plaid Cymru 12 per cent. But what was interesting about that poll was that when the figures were broken down into age groups it showed that in the youngest age group, from 21 to 34, the Labour Party would receive 28 per cent. of the votes, the Conservatives 30 per cent., the Liberals 11 per cent. and Plaid Cymru 20 per cent. A very significant fact in those figures is that in the younger age group in Wales—the Wales of the future—it is this Party, the Conservative Party, that has the most support.
§ 3.31 p.m.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, on that unaccustomed and unusual note, I should like to start my speech. May I say, on the selective statistics which the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has just given, that he did not break them down further, and that if he had done, it would have shown that in those statistics there was a division between the rural areas of Wales and the urban areas. If my recollection serves me aright, the Conservative Party did not do quite so well there. At all events, the figure for the Liberal Party was 25 per cent. so somebody must have done not quite so well.
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Maelor, for introducing this debate, and for starting it off on such a cheerful note. Again, I feel that some of his statistics, his facts, were not as strictly accurate as one would wish, and perhaps I can amend one or two in the course of my remarks. The first amendment I should like to make, although it has really nothing to do with the debate at all (but, then, nor had a lot of the noble Lord's speech), is that he said there had never been a Welsh Lord Chancellor. Surely Lord Sankey was a very distinguished Lord Chancellor. Lord Sankey came from Cardiff, and his relatives lived in my own town, Bridgend. I knew them extremely well—and very nice people they were. Lord Sankey was a Welshman, or was Welsh enough anyway; and, as I say, he sat with great distinction on the Woolsack. Surprising, too, from the point of view that the noble 1196 Lord, Lord Maelor, did not remember him, is the fact that Lord Sankey was a Labour Lord Chancellor, and subsequently became a National Government Lord Chancellor. Many of your Lordships will remember him.
As to the team that is playing at Wembley, I fully support the noble Lord, Lord Brecon, in sending good wishes from these Benches; as we do to the Welsh rugby team that is playing in New Zealand, particularly as three members of the team come from my own team, Bridgend, of which I am patron.
§ LORD BRECONThree come from my club too, including the captain.
§ LORD OGMOREOf course, I would not pretend to put my own claims as high as those of Newport, to which the noble Lord is referring. I may say that two of them no longer wear our jersey—I was about to say that—whereas all the three mentioned by the noble Lord still wear the Newport jersey.
As to the Investiture, I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Maelor, mentioned that, and also the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, because I feel that it is of some importance to your Lordships. I hope that it will be of gratification to your Lordships that so many Members of your Lordships' House will be taking part in the Investiture. That is, I feel, or should be, a great gratification to us and to those taking part. May I say that, according to the latest opinion poll, 90 per cent. of the Welsh are entirely in favour of the Investiture? They are delighted with the Prince. He is making an extremely good impression at Aberystwyth; and if the Press and the television would leave him alone for a bit, I am sure that he himself would be much happier as a normal student with his fellows in Aberystwyth. We are pleased and proud of him; and he is a Prince who, I am sure, will do for Wales every possible service in his power.
As to the violence, which has been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, there have been four bomb incidents in the last three weeks, and I should like to support the noble Lord in what he said. I believe these are wicked and unChristian acts—and I repeat the word, "unChristian" in the hope that that goes down among them. It is of course very largely the same pattern as we see elsewhere. There is a real or imagined grievance, and this is seized upon by 1197 people who have ulterior motives. The way to combat it—apart from enforcing security, using the police and so on—is to remove the grievance. The Emperor of Abyssinia once said: "If you care for peace without justice, you shall have neither peace nor justice." I believe that that applies as much in internal affairs as it does in external affairs.
One of the solutions, one of the ways in which we can meet the real grievances which are seized upon, as I have said, by wicked people, is by devolution; and all Parties, I am glad to say, are coming round to this fact. The Conservative and the Labour Parties, which have been in power for many years, have established an administrative devolution to a very large extent. On this point I do not think that Lord Maclor gave as much tribute to the Conservatives as he might have done, because, after all, they established a Welsh Office, and Mr. Henry Brooke (Lord Brooke, as he now is) and Lord Brecon did a great deal, within the scope of that Office, for Wales. In my dealings with them, which were many, I found them most helpful so far as they could go. They never refused me anything if they could do it for me.
When the Labour Party came to power they quite rightly established a Secretary of State and a full Welsh Office. I was very pleased indeed, that Mr. James Griffiths was the first Secretary of State for Wales—he had been so long connected with Welsh affairs that it was a very fine gesture—and I was also very pleased that my old friend Mr. George Thomas was subsequently appointed Secretary of State. I must say that I have a soft spot for him because he, Lord Beswick and I were for some time colleagues together in the Ministry of Civil Aviation. From all I hear in Wales, and from my personal knowledge, both Mr. George Thomas and his staff are most helpful. They are doing their best; and if they are not able to do all they would like to do it is not their fault; the reason is that they have not the power to do it. Within the scope of their Office they are doing their best.
On the legislative side, of course, we are nowhere near so advanced as on the administrative side. Neither of the two Parties has as yet been prepared to give us the devolution on the legislative side that they have been prepared 1198 to give us in the administrative sphere. The Conservatives have not, so far, been prepared to have an elected Council or a Parliament for Wales. The Labour Government have not been prepared even to take the first step of an elected Council for Wales, although the Welsh Regional Council of Labour, I understand, has advocated that course. But Mr. George Thomas is a very persuasive man, as we all know, and I hope that he will be able to persuade his colleagues in the Cabinet.
So far as the Conservatives are concerned, Mr. Quintin Hogg, who as your Lordships know is the Shadow Home Secretary, has come out for a domestic Parliament for Wales. It is true that what he intends has not been very clearly defined. Quite naturally (I do not blame him), he has not gone into every detail, but he has come out for the general principle of a domestic Parliament for Wales; and, although that does not commit the Conservative Party, it certainly gives a very good indication, I feel, of what they are thinking on this proposal.
So far as we are concerned, the Welsh Liberal Party, of which I am President, we advocate a domestic Government and Parliament within a federal system in the United Kingdom, on the lines of my Bill, which your Lordships rejected on January 30, 1968. I cannot help feeling that the next time I bring it forward, if I do, I shall have support from both Front Benches, whichever particular Party happens to be sitting on one and the other. We believe—and I certainly believe very strongly—that domestic home rule is an essential basis for the revitalisation of Wales and for her political, economic, educational and social development. I do not believe this is another "gimmick," so to speak. In our opinion—and I want to emphasise this, as Lord Maelor did, quoting St. Paul—domestic home rule is an essential basis for development; that is, a domestic Government and Parliament for Wales.
A recent poll showed that 60 per cent. of votes polled were in favour of a domestic Parliament on the lines that I have indicated. Only a small number was in favour of a completely separate Government and Parliament such as is desired by the Welsh Nationalist Party. I want to make that point quite clear The 1199 Welsh people as a whole—or at least 60 per cent. of them—are in favour of the course that I am advocating, a domestic Government and Parliament of Wales within a federal United Kingdom.
My Lords, the Crowther Commission are just starting to sit. They have been six months gestating. For some reason the announcement of the composition took six months, and the chairman said recently that it would take two or three years to complete their work. That seems to me to be a great deal of time to take. I wonder whether we have that time to spare. After all, most of the facts are already known in the Government Departments. I am certain that Whitehall (which possibly already has the Report in draft) knows exactly what evidence is to be produced; and if Mr. Thomas were to chase round the Departments with a good whip he could get in the next month all the facts that the Crowther Commission will get. I therefore ask Mr. Thomas to put a whip also on the Crowther Commission to get them to complete their task well within two or three years.
There are two other points I wish to raise. First, economic development. I believe that radical re-thinking is needed. We in the Welsh Liberal Party have done a study, called Life to a Nation, which is worthy of consideration by the Secretary of State. It is based to some extent on the following principle. At the present moment industrialists, such as those mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Maelor, whose factories are scattered like confetti around Wales, are getting sops as inducements to compensate them for moving from England and elsewhere; to compensate them for the disabilities of operating in Wales. We say that this is the wrong approach. What is needed is to remove the disabilities. You will not then need the sops.
Any Government, whether they be Labour, Conservative, Liberal, Welsh Nationalist, or what have you, who have this present policy of a wholesale scattering of factories—particularly around the valleys, which the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, was talking about—will achieve very little, because the factories are put down in the places where there happens to be labour and not in the places where there happens to be a need 1200 for the factory. At the moment even the sops are inconsistent; because, as we have seen and as Lord Maelor mentioned, although he did not stress it, the industrial and urban areas in South Wales and the industrial and urban areas in parts of North Wales are not in the development area at all. That means to say that they do not got the grants, so that much of their industry tends to seep away North a few miles where they do get the grants.
My Lords, I managed to get a copy, the last one in the Printed Paper Office, of the Edwards Committee Report, British Air Transport in the Seventies. The Edwards Committee state that the location of industry is materially influenced by the degree to which air services are available. This point on the question of communications is the last that I wish to make. It is tied up with the location of industry, as Lord Maelor said. He was very critical of my learned friend, Mr. Hooson, who made an interjection, I gather, in the House of Commons on this point. I have always understood that it was not in order to quote what was said in the other place unless the speaker were a Minister, so I feel rather dubious about trying to defend Mr. Hooson over something that I have not seen or heard. But I gather that he said that communications generally were very important and that he would sacrifice some of these factories for good communications. I have no doubt that what he meant was what I have been saying: that communications are vital; that the location of industry is vital and that spreading factories around is not necessarily the right way.
I am convinced that first-class air communications are vital—not only communications generally, but air communications. Just recently I spent a few days in Aberystwyth. While there it came to me very forcibly how extremely vulnerable they were on this question of communications. Recently, a friend of mine saw off a friend of his from London Airport and then started back to Aberystwyth. His friend arrived in New York before he arrived in Aberystwyth. That is an indication of the sort of time taken in travelling. Many of the railways either have been or are going to be removed from large parts of Wales, and the roads are not capable of carrying the 1201 traffic that they have to bear. I believe that we should—and I think this is what Mr. Hooson meant, and I agree with him—sacrifice a great deal of the development finance in Wales for good, really good communications and particularly air communications.
In the Welsh University—and we have the pro-Chancellor here to-day—if the College of North Wales has to get a lecturer or to get people on courses from London, it has to send a car or a bus from Aberystyth to Wolverhampton or Shrewsbury to pick them up for the lecture and to send them back afterwards. The same thing happens to the National Library of Wales. And if any unfortunate manufacturer is in that part of Wales he has to do the same. I believe that the only solution to this question is an air link. I believe that if we had a really good system of air communications based on Rhoose, Speke (Liverpool) and Manchester, with air strips in suitable places in Wales such as Swansea, Withybush, Aberystwyth, Valley (Anglesey), Llandrindod Wells, Hawarden and other places, we could really get going with development as we want it in Wales. Unless we have this method of air communications I do not believe that we shall do so.
Forty years ago, when I was in Malaya, it took three weeks to get from Penang (where I was stationed) to places on the East coast. When I was there ten years ago it took two or three hours. Every little place, every town, Kuala Lumpur, Ipoh, and all the rest, were all linked by air. If Malaya can do this, why cannot we in this country? Here we are in the second half of the twentieth century and still it takes me longer to get to my home in Wales than it took my grandfather eighty years ago. We are still in the nineteenth century! I believe that this is something that all Parties have to think about very hard. We have the Highlands and Islands air service in Scotland and we want something of that kind in Wales.
My Lords, I do not intend to speak any longer. There are a number of speakers. May I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Maelor, very much for his opening the debate, and may I also welcome the noble Earl, Lord Lloyd-George, whose speech we shall listen to with great attention—for I believe that his grand 1202 father was one of the three men of undoubted political genius in the political life of this country, so far, in the twentieth century.