HL Deb 07 May 1969 vol 301 cc1178-81

2.38 p.m.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government on what basis foreign Governments are selected to be approached by serving officers of the Armed Forces detailed to promote the sale of British military and defence equipment.]

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to sell defence equipment to countries with which we have friendly relations, subject of course to considerations of security and economic and political factors. Within this policy we direct our sales activities both to those countries which have traditionally bought British equipment and to other friendly countries which have a requirement for defence equipment.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, arising out of that reply, may I ask whether the noble Lord could make it clear that questions of overall strategy, of assistance and encouragement to civilian trade, and, thirdly, of the balance of payments all operate within the reasoning of the explanation that he gave? Because what he has just delineated suggests that there are omissions in the activity of the seekers of arms.

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

Yes, my Lords. I think we should be glad to sell arms to anyone, but obviously it must be within various limitations and various considerations—a limitation on the universal market in arms in this country.

LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that on April 25 last the South African Government published a Defence White Paper which states that an expenditure of £1,000 million over the next five years is to be made for the defence of the Cape trade route? May we take it that the noble Lord's Answer means that the British Government, in the interests both of economy and of defence of trade routes which are vital to us, will now approach the South African Government in the hope that we may sell arms and equipment for the purposes set out in this White Paper?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

No, my Lords, that assumption cannot be made. In my answer to the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, I indicated that there were limitations on the sale of arms from this country. The limitation that applies to South Africa is a series of United Nations resolutions, culminating in the Security Council resolution of June 18, 1964. Since we are a member of that organisation and wish to see it succeed, that resolution is binding upon us.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, is there a moral issue involved if you use a port for your survival but refuse to help defend it?

LORD STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this question? Should there be any limitation or exception where the safety of the trade routes is concerned?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, trade routes pass through the oceans of the world and do not necessarily pass the end of the South African continent.

LORD STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, is the noble Lord able to say that the route round the Cape is not an essential to British survival in the event of war?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, that is a very wide question and I should think might be answered in the Defence debate. But I think that. in the limited term, the answer is that there are alternatives.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, may I asked the noble Lord whether his mind will go back to his statements in the Defence debate last week, that our overall strategy must be controlled by the absence of injury to our trade and balance of payments? How can he justify the statements which he first gave, having regard to the possible sales on the scale available to South Africa and Portugal? My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord—

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)

My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? He knows better than anyone the procedure of this House; if he wishes to ask a question, perhaps he will do so.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, I was on the point of adding that even the Lord Privy Seal could hardly agree—

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, it is not a question of whether or not I agree; it is a question of the procedure of your Lordships' House. The noble Lord was going on to make suggestions and he knows that that is not the issue. If he wishes to ask a question—and I say this with the utmost respect for his knowledge—he should ask the question.

LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is no need to interpret the resolution of the U.N. to which he refers as prohibiting the export of arms to South Africa for the purposes of external defence? And why do the Government hide behind this resolution, in the face of really sabotaging a vital British interest?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I should have thought that the opinion of the United Nations was perhaps more important to this country than many other considerations, such as the need to supply a limited amount of arms to South Africa. Her Majesty's Government are bound by the Security Council resolution of June 18, 1964, and there the situation stands as of now.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in the overall strategy we hope that we shall not supply arms to countries which do not recognise human rights?

LORD STRATHCLYDE

My Lords, is the noble Lord able to assure the House that the United Nations are capable to-day of protecting our trade coming round the Cape of Good Hope?

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal I will ask a direct question of the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom. Arising out of the Defence debate last week, can he say whether this stubborn ideology applies to Portugal also, from whom we have lost a great deal of arms orders?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I was purely quoting a Security Council resolution.