§ 6.43 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (BARONESS SEROTA)My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Baroness Serota.)
§ House in Committee accordingly.
§ [The LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1 agreed to.
§ Clause 2 [Constitution of General Nursing Council for England and Wales]:
§
BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 3, line 3, leave out (" appointed by the Central Midwives Board ").
§ The noble Baroness said I beg to move Amendment No. 1. Amendment No. 2 is linked with it, and Amendments Nos. 3, 4 and 7 relate to the same point; so perhaps to save your Lordships' time we could discuss them all together. The purpose of all these Amendments is to ensure that before making any appointments the appointing body, or the appointing Minister, has consultations with people who have special knowledge and experience in the field. The Central Midwives Board, for instance, should consult the Royal College of Midwives, and so on. This requirement is already in the 1959 Act for the Minister's appointments, and I think it should be made general. I know that the nursing profession attach tremendous importance to the principle of consultation and it would be taken by them as a blow in the face if the Government do not accept these Amendments; so I greatly hope that they will.
1012§ LORD AMULREEI should like briefly to support these Amendments. I do not want to go into great detail about them; I think that they are obvious. I am sure that it would be a great advantage to all concerned if the appropriate bodies could be consulted before appointments are made, for that would not only ensure that the right people are appointed, but also inspire confidence in the appointments.
§ BARONESS SEROTAMay I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte, for the business-like way in which she started the Committee stage of the Bill. Let us hope that it is a good omen. I am grateful to her for putting her points so concisely and briefly, and for enabling us to deal with Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7 at the same time. It is a question here of judgment. This particular requirement was not included in the Bill, in that the bodies we are discussing, the Central Midwives Board, the Council for Training in Social Work—and indeed, the Secretary of State himself—are presumably all responsible people. It was felt that bodies of this standing would consult in any event, without the words' being written into the legislation. It is a question of balance.
I think the noble Baroness said that the nursing profession would take offence if the Amendment was not made. It was our feeling that they would regard it as slightly derogatory if special provision were made for this in the legislation. If the noble Baroness, Lady Brooke, can assure me that this view would not be taken of the formula she is suggesting, perhaps we may reach agreement on it.
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEI am most grateful to the Minister for the way she has received the Amendment. I can give her the assurance for which she asks, as much as one can ever answer on behalf of a large body of people. The representatives of it certainly made clear to me that that is what they would like and I would, on their behalf, give that assurance.
§ BARONESS SEROTAAs this is a Bill that the Government have brought forward on behalf of the General Nursing Council, and in the light of the assurance we have just heard, I suggest to the Committee that we accept the Amendments.
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEI beg to move Amendment No. 2:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 7, at end insert ("appointed by the Central Midwives Board after consultation with persons and bodies having special knowledge and experience of the work of midwives so engaged")—(Baroness Brooke of Ysiradfellte.)
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEI beg to move Amendment No. 3:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 9, leave out ("appointed by the Council for the Training of Health Visitors")—(Baroness Brooke of Ystradfellte.)
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEI beg to move Amendment No. 4:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 14, at end insert ("appointed by the Council for the Training of Health Visitors after consultation with persons and bodies having special knowledge and experience of the work of registered nurses and health visitors so engaged")—(Baroness Brooke of Ystradfellte.)
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE moved Amendment No. 5.
§
Page 3, line 43, at end insert—
("( ) For paragraph 2(2) of that Schedule there shall be substituted the following:
§ The noble Baroness said: I beg to move Amendment No. 5. This Amendment relates to the elected nurses. I am i sure it is desirable that a registered nurse elected to represent registered nurses 1014 should be currently engaged in work. normally done by a registered nurse, and that an enrolled nurse elected to represent enrolled nurses should be engaged in work normally done by an enrolled nurse This Amendment, too, matters a great that to the nursing profession. I cannot see why anybody should be opposed to it, and I hope that the Government will accept it.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 43, at end insert the said subsection.—(Baroness Brooke of Ystradfellte.)
§ BARONESS SEROTAThe objective of the Amendment which the noble Baroness has moved was in fact agreed by my Department in correspondence with the Council following the publication of the Bill. Indeed, it was our intention to table an Amendment at the Committee stage. I shall be very happy to accept the excellent draftsmanship with which we have been provided by the noble Baroness, and in these circumstances we will accept the Amendment.
§ 6.50 p.m.
§ BARONESS SEROTAI beg to move Amendment No. 6, which has been tabled at the request of the General Nursing Council. The object is to make clear that bodies to be consulted must have special knowledge and experience of the work of medical practitioners engaged in the teaching of student nurses training for the general part of the Register.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 11, leave out ("engaged in the teaching of nursing") and insert ("so engaged").—(Baroness Serota.)
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEI beg to move Amendment No. 7.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 44, leave out from ("persons") to end of line 46 and insert ("engaged in the control and management of hospitals, appointed by the Secretary of State after consultation with persons and bodies having special knowledge and experience of such control and management.").—(Baroness Brooke of Ystradfellte.)
§ BARONESS SEROTAThis is the last of the group of Amendments to which the noble Baroness spoke at the outset. I come to the Despatch Box only to make 1015 a particular point. This part of the Bill relates to persons appointed by the Secretary of State. I was going to give the noble Baroness an undertaking that the Secretary of State would always consult to make sure that the persons he (perhaps one day even she) appoints under this Bill would satisfy the particular requirement. It is open to the Committee to decide whether they wish to accept the broad lines of the Amendments that the noble Baroness explained at the outset of our discussion or perhaps, in the light of the undertaking I have given, the noble Baroness herself may feel that she would like to withdraw this Amendment.
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEWhile thanking the noble Baroness very much for the way in which she has clarified her point of view on this, I am afraid that I should like to press the Amendment.
§ BARONESS SEROTAThis Amendment has been put down to rectify a drafting omission in the Bill submitted to the House. Indeed, it serves the same purpose as that which the noble Baroness proposes in her Amendment No. 17. I hope that the Committee will find it acceptable. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 4, line 46, at end insert—
("(4) In paragraph 6(1) of that Schedule for the words from 'if the member was appointed' to 'as the case may be' there shall be substituted the words 'if he was an appointed member, be filled by a person appointed by the Secretary of State or body that appointed him'.").—(Baroness Serota.)
§ Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 3 [Consitution of General Nursing Council for Scotland]:
§ BARONESS SEROTAI think that it would be for the convenience of the Committee if I were to speak to Amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 12 together. These Amendments extend to enrolled nurses the requirements as regards qualification for election corresponding to those applicable to registered nurses. This is a corresponding Amendment to the Amendment to Clause 2 of the Bill which the Committee has already accepted. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 10, leave out ("(1)")—(Baroness Serota.)
§ BARONESS SEROTAI beg to move Amendment No. 10.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 12, leave out ("(1)") and insert ("2(1)")—(Baroness Serota.)
§ BARONESS SEROTAI beg to move Amendment No. 11. This is purely a drafting Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 13, leave out ("(including male nurses)")—(Baroness Serota.)
§ BARONESS SEROTAI beg to move Amendment No. 12.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 5, line 30, at end insert—
("(2) Each of the nurses elected under the foregoing sub-paragraph shall, on the date fixed for the purpose of the election as the last date for the receipt of nomination papers, be engaged in Scotland in nursing or other work for which the employment of a registered nurse or an enrolled nurse, as the case may be, is requisite or for which a registered nurse or an enrolled nurse, as the case may be, is commonly employed.")—(Baroness Serota.)
§ Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 4 to 10 agreed to.
§ Clause 11 [Commencement, transitional provisions, citation and extent]:
§
BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 8, line 2, leave out ("on 1st January 1970") and insert ("one month after the passing of this Act.").
§ The noble Baroness said: I beg to move Amendment No. 13. I think that there is a case for bringing forward the date when the main part of the Bill will come into operation. I believe that preparations for holding the 1970 election will actually need to start before January 1. It will help matters if the Act is already in force before the preparations start, and so I am suggesting in this Amendment that it should come into force a month after Royal Assent. There would be an advantage in that and I cannot see any disadvantage.
1017§ BARONESS SEROTAWe have held discussions with the General Nursing Council on this point and we understand that it will assist them in preparations for the election. In these circumstances, I am happy to advise the Committee to accept the noble Baroness's Amendment.
§ BARONESS SEROTAI beg to move Amendment No. 14. The object of this Amendment is to widen the clause so as to permit a vacancy arising among the elected members of the existing Council not to be filled, the point being that such an election might be for only the last few weeks of the existing Council's existence. Again, this is a point we are putting forward after discussions with the General Nursing Council. I hope that this Amendment is acceptable to the Committee.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 16, leave out ("appointed")(Baroness Serota.)
§ Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
§ Schedule 1 [Minor and consequential amendments]:
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEI beg to move Amendment No. 15. Amendment No. 16 relates to the same point. When I looked in Sections 31 and 33 of the Nurses Act 1957, I could not find the word "disorder" anywhere. I then discovered that it had later been inserted into those sections by the Mental Health Act 1959. I suggest that it will save other people from being puzzled, as I was, if these Amendments are made in the Bill.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 41, after ("Act") insert (", as amended by the Seventh Schedule to the Mental Health Act 1959,").—(Baroness Brooke of Ystradfellte.)
§ BARONESS SEROTAThe noble Baroness clearly follows these complicated matters more easily than I do, but I am advised that these Amendments are not necessary. The Amendments which are being made in this Bill are to the Nurses Act 1957 as subsequently amended in other legislation, including the Seventh Schedule of the Mental Health Act 1959. Therefore, it is felt that no further reference need be made to this, and no 1018 Amendment as put down is necessary. I hope that the noble Baroness accepts and understands the point that am making. If there are still doubts in her mind, we can discuss these at a later stage of the Bill.
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEI am grateful to the noble Baroness for the child's guide to knowledge with which she has entirely sot my mind at rest. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ BARONESS SEROTAPerhaps the Committee will be prepared to consider Amendments Nos. 18 and 19 together because these have been submitted merely to remedy earlier drafting Amendments. I beg to move Amendment No. 18.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 10, leave out line 28 and insert—
("11. In section 4 of the Nurses (Amendment) Act 1961, for the words from the beginning to "occurs" there shall he substituted the words "In paragraph 4 of Schedule 1 to the Act of 1957 for the word 'fourteen'".
§ 12. In section 6 of that Act—").—(Baroness Serota.)
§ Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
§ Schedule 2 [Enactments repealed]
§ BARONESS SEROTAI beg to move Amendment No. 19.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, leave out line 47 and insert ("In section 4, subsections (2) and (3).")—(Baroness Serota.)
§ BARONESS SEROTAI beg to move Amendment No. 20. It is perhaps a reflection of the co-operation between all sides that I conclude by moving an Amendment which is consequential on an earlier Amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 54, column 3, at end insert ("and, in paragraph 13 and paragraph 15, the words from the beginning to 'papers; and'.")—(Baroness Serota.)
§ Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.
§ House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendments.