LICENSING (SCOTLAND) BILL (Hansard, 13 March 1969)

§ Loan TAYLOR OF GRYFE
My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The purpose of the Bill is to make provision for the establishment of licensing courts for any new small burghs, with a population of 7,000 or more, formed since 1961 or which may be formed in the future under Section 133 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1947, and for effecting certain consequential alterations in other licensing courts and courts of appeal.
Under the Licensing (Scotland) Act, whether or not a Scottish burgh has its own licensing court is determined broadly by its population. In general, a burgh will have a licensing court of its own if it has a population of 7,000. But "population", as defined, is population according to the last Census taken. In practice, changes in licensing courts for small burghs must therefore at the present time await the making of an order by the Secretary of State following the declaration of census figures. This means in fact that it is two years after the census is taken that the necessary order is made, and since the census is taken only every ten years, it could mean that a newly created burgh with a population of more than 7,000 might be required to wait 11 years before it had its own licensing court.
643 A change in accordance with the provisions of this Bill was suggested by the Guest Committee. Recommendation No. 5 of their Report said that it should be permissible for the Secretary of State to take cognisance for licensing purposes at any time of changes in boundaries or population resulting from the creation of new burghs; and that is exactly what the Bill proposes. It would mean in effect that the Secretary of State for Scotland could make an Order providing for the setting up of a licensing authority within a new burgh, based on population figures supplied to him by the Registrar General for the purposes of establishing licensing courts in new burghs.
When this matter was discussed in another place the Member for North Lanark, who introduced the Bill, quoted the example of a new burgh in her own constituency, the new burgh of Bishopbriggs, which was established as a burgh in May 1964. Under the present provisions it must wait until 1973, nine years after its formation, before it can have its own licensing authority. The population of the burgh of Bishopbriggs is 19,000. This Bill, therefore, is designed to clear up what is an obvious anomaly, and I hope that it will commend itself to your Lordships' House. I beg to move.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, on introducing this Bill, and to give it support from this side of your Lordships' House. It is a useful little Bill and it corrects what is obviously an extremely irritating anomaly—irritating, that is, for any small burgh which might be caught by the present law. I have no comment to make on it except perhaps to refer to a Committee point which we might dispose of now.
I am not altogether clear what happens on an appeal from the licensing court of the burgh if there is at the present time no court of appeal constituted under the said Part II for the county in which the new burgh is situated of every burgh situated in that county … I understand that the appeal would go to a committee composed of small burghs; but if there is no such committee 644 actually in existence, I am not sure that the words are apt. In any case, if a committee has to be created solely for the small burgh which is becoming a licensing authority, it seems that there would then be an appeal from the licensing authority of the burgh to the licensing authority of the burgh; although it would then be called a county committee. Apart from that comment, my Lords, I have no suggestion to make, and I commend the Bill to the House.

§ LORD HUGHES
My Lords, this is an easier task than I had last time. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, has stated the case for this little Bill so clearly, yet so comprehensively, that there is really nothing for me to say, other than that the Government commend the Bill to your Lordships. It is a very suitable form of amendment, or correction, of a minor defect in the licensing laws, and the sort of thing which is eminently suitable to be done by a Private Member's Bill. I congratulate the noble Lord on having, so early in his career in your Lordships' House, been able to attach himself to a measure which is unlikely to meet with other than general approbation from your Lordships.
The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, will forgive me if I do not answer his point on appeal. As he stated, it is a Committee point. Technically, of course, it is for the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, to answer, because it is his Bill and not mine; but I do not know the answer and I am not at all certain that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, knows it either. Apparently, my Lords, he does, and in that case I am wasting my time. All I would do is to add, as an addendum to what I have said, that he having the answer to this question shows how completely right it is that he should have accepted paternity for this Bill in your Lordships' House—even though he is a teetotaller.

§ LORD TAYLOR OF GRYFE
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for their friendly acceptance of the Bill which I have submitted. May I deal, so far as I can, with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn? As I understand the position, unless the burgh population is more than 20,000 appeals 645 will go to the burgh court of appeal which is set up for all the burghs in the county with populations between 7,000 and 20,000. Instead of the county appeal court, a body will be set up consisting of the burghs who will constitute a county appeal court. The burgh appeal court consists of magistrates of each burgh according to numbers prescribed in the First Schedule to the 1959 Act, and an equal number of justices. The county appeal court consists of an equal number of county councillors and justices. I am not sure that that makes it completely clear to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, but at least it will appear in Hansard and perhaps be clarified subsequently. As I say, I am appreciative of the support given by noble Lords. Licensing, particularly liquor licensing, is perhaps a matter on which I am not a great authority, but I am glad the Bill has received the reception it has from your Lordships.