§ LORD MOYNEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government the estimated annual loss to the B.B.C. from unlicensed viewers and unlicensed listeners and whether they will not introduce legislation to make dealers in television or radio sets responsible for seeing that their customers have licences.]
§ LORD BOWLESMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Postmaster General estimates the loss of revenue from television licence evasion at £7½ million annually. He has no reliable estimates of the number of sound licence evaders. Her Majesty's Government consider that the arrangements which Parliament has provided in the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1967, under which dealers send the Post Office the names and addresses of customers to whom they sell or rent television sets, are preferable to the noble Lord's suggestion that dealers should themselves enforce the licensing requirements.
§ LORD MOYNEMy Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for his reply, I should like to ask four brief and, I hope, constructive supplementaries: one, whether the powers which already exist ought not at this time of difficulty for the B.B.C. to be used to call for returns of existing T.V. hire agreements dating from before 1968; two, whether it would not be fruitful for dealers to have to inform customers that a return is being made about them; three, whether the purchaser's licence number ought not to be put on the dealer's form; four, whether statutory 1068 power ought not at least to be sought to call for returns of new radio sets sold?
§ LORD BOWLESMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for having a talk with me this morning. The answer to his four questions are as follows. First, the Post Office could not deal with this additional information because the grade of staff dealing with this work is badly under strength. Current notifications are coming in at the rate of 2 million a year. Secondly, I understand some dealers already do this, but I will convey the noble Lord's suggestion to my right honourable friend. Thirdly, not all customers would have their licence with them when they bought their sets. Conscientious dealers who enforced such a requirement might lose custom to more accommodating competitors. Fourthly, the system depends on having a register of dealers. Radio sets are sold by such a wide range of shops that it would be quite impossible to compile a satisfactory register of radio dealers.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, could the noble Lord tell us what the cost of collection of licence fees is at present, and also the cost of detection?
§ LORD BOWLESNo, my Lords, I do not think so, because that does not seem to arise out of this Question.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, my noble friend said that the present arrangements were preferable to an arrangement under which the licence has to be produced by the customer at the time of purchase. He did not give any reason for that. Can he tell us why it is preferable, and why this very simple device that the customer produces the licence is not a cheap and economical way of saving £7½ million?
§ LORD BOWLESMy Lords, my idea was that the salesman who exacted as a condition production of the licence would find that the man would go somewhere else the next day.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, might there not be a little co-operation between the B.B.C. and the national Electricity Board, that the licence should be displayed near the electric meter, to be checked once a quarter when the electricity meter reading is 1069 taken? It seems to me that that would get over all our difficulties.
§ LORD BOWLESMy Lords, I will certainly pass that suggestion on to my right honourable friend.
LORD HAWKEMy Lords, would it be correct to say that numerous orchestras in this country are likely to be slaughtered because it is impossible to collect these fees in full?
§ LORD BOWLESMy Lords, the collection of the fees is going up very fast each year.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, can the noble Lord explain his answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton? If this were a requirement, how would the purchaser do any good by going elsewhere? He would be subject to exactly the same difficulty as he was in the first place.
§ LORD BOWLESMy Lords, all dealers are not equally decent. Some would insist upon this in a nice way, others in a nasty way. It is obviously the duty of any salesman to say, "Of course, you will have to take out a licence on this set, and no doubt you will be hearing from the Post Office in the next four or five weeks".
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, surely the whole point is that if it were mandatory upon the person, compulsory that the purchaser produces the licence, no dealer would be at a disadvantage, because they would all be working under the same rule.
§ LORD BOWLESMy Lords, I am not sure about that. I have thought about the matter this morning, and I think that people who are in the habit of evading payment for any kind of licence or instalment would be likely to go to a second-class dealer rather than a first-class dealer.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, does not my noble friend think that this is an extraordinary confession of failure: that because there may be some dishonest dealers therefore thought that by this device it would be he is unable to bring in a simple device to save £7½ million? I should have quite possible to deal with dishonest dealers.
§ LORD BOWLESMy Lords, my noble friend, as a magistrate, knows that it is quite impossible also to deal with all tax evaders.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that that does not prevent attempts to enforce the collection of taxes?
§ LORD HEYCOCKMy Lords, did I understand the noble Lord to say that the loss is £7½ million? Could I be told how he arrives at that figure?
§ LORD BOWLESMy Lords, we know how many television sets there are in existence and we also know how many licences are taken out. By a simple process of subtraction we can find the figure.