CHURCHILL MEMORIAL: PARLIAMENT SQUARE SITE (Hansard, 22 July 1969)

§ Lord RAGLAN
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord SHACKLETON
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government would be happy to make a site available for the statue in Parliament Square if sufficient money were forthcoming from public subscription.

§ Lord RAGLAN
My Lords, I am very glad to hear that and I thank my noble friend. Would the Government provide an area sufficient not for a mere statue in the corner of the Square, but for a memorial which could be both suitably grand and exciting?

§ Lord SHACKLETON
My Lords, quite an amount of consideration has been given to this matter. As noble Lords know, there are statues at Woodford, in the Guildhall and in Churchill College; the memorial stone in Westminster Abbey; a plaque commemorating the lying-in-state; and another statue is shortly to be erected in Westminster, in Parliament itself. The attitude of the Government on this matter is certainly one of sympathy. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister said that it is a question of the extent of further public interest. A voluntary committee is at work, and in the light of that committee's success the Government will certainly cooperate. I myself should hesitate to start specifying the form of a memorial. That is the kind of area which gives rise to controversy. Some noble Lords will have seen the correspondence in The Times. The Government really wait on events, sympathetically and willing to co-operate over Parliament Square.

§ Lord RAGLAN
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that answer.

§ Lord DRUMALBYN
My Lords, may I ask what the noble Lord means by"sufficient money"? How much money would have to be raised before the 764 Government would consider making a site available?

§ Lord SHACKLETON
My Lords, I do not honestly know; it depends on what is proposed. A Committee is dealing with this question and there is an early-day Motion in another place. There is a Committee which I think the honourable Member for Liverpool, Wavertree, is connected with or is responsible for. First of all, the plans must go much further before one can say what it would cost, and presumably the amount of money that is collected may determine this.

The MARQUESS of ABERDEEN and TEMAIR
My Lords, is not the most appropriate place elsewhere, in Westminster Abbey? Is not a place waiting there for a statue of Sir Winston Churchill, in the Northern transept, where many Prime Ministers' statues appear? A column there is completely vacant opposite to the statue of Sir Robert Peel, and if it were occupied by a statue of Sir Winston Churchill it would complete most satisfactorily the aisle, which is full of statues of Prime Ministers. Is it not the case that a statue of Sir Winston Churchill would be very appropriate opposite that of a similarly important Prime Minister, Sir Robert Peel?

§ Lord SHACKLETON
My Lords, of course this is not really a matter for the Government; it is for the Abbey authorities. I think there must—I say this with the greatest respect—be a limit to the number of statues. There is the very fine memorial stone in Westminster Abbey. Here again, this is why I think it is important to get public opinion and feeling on this matter. But no doubt the Westminster Abbey authorities will have noticed what the noble Marquess has said.

§ Lord AMULREE
My Lords, I am not quite sure whether this is the appropriate occasion to mention it, but I wonder whether it would be possible for Her Majesty's Government to ensure that the portrait of Sir Winston painted by Graham Sutherland, which was given to him by both Houses of Parliament, should finally find its way back to somewhere in this House?

§ Lord SHACKLETON
My Lords, I do not think that point arises on this Question, and I believe the late Sir Winston Churchill was not particularly 765 keen on the portrait—I still remember his very cryptic remark on the subject. But I have taken note of what has been said, and again I think this is a matter for the House authorities.

§ Lord SORENSEN
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the statue of the right honourable gentleman which exists in Woodford is in his own constituency, and is not nearly as good as it ought to have been?

§ Lord SHACKLETON
My Lords, I really cannot answer for Woodford.

§ Lord BLYTON
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I do not mind how many statues are put up to the late Sir Winston Churchill but I think we should remember that he did not win the last war by himself. He had men like Clem Attlee and Ernie Bevin. Not only that, but it is nice to see the adulation from the Conservative Benches—the Party which kept him in the wilderness throughout the whole of the 'thirties.

§ Lord SHACKLETON
My Lords, these are all apt remarks in the atmosphere of the debate we had yesterday. I think Sir Winston Churchill was the first of all people to acknowledge the services of his colleagues and the achievements of the British people.

§ Lord ILFORD
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he would consider siting the new statue in the Cromwell Garden and removing the statue of Cromwell to a more appropriate place?

§ The Marquess of SALISBURY
My Lords, is there a body in existence which is in a position to make an appeal for the money which is required? I was not quite clear from the noble Lord's original Answer. It is not possible for people to bring out plans for a statue or a memorial until they know how much money will be available; and somebody must appeal for that.

§ Lord SHACKLETON
My Lords, I understand that there is a committee in existence and I think the best person to get in touch with is Mr. Tilney. However, if there is any further help I can give to your Lordships' House on the matter, I will give it. As I understand the position, there has been no public appeal as yet, and this is really what the Government are waiting for. If this is to 766 come about it should be as a result of some further spontaneous action, with the Government giving full co-operation.