§ 4.6 p.m.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, with permission, I should like to repeat a Statement that is being made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence in another place on the Five-Power Conference on Far Eastern Defence. The Statement is as follows:
"The Five-Power Conference took place at Canberra on 19th and 20th June, 1969. Honourable Members will already have seen the communiqué issued at the end of the Conference and will be aware that it was primarily concerned with practical arrangements for defence co-operation in the area during the period of our run-down and after our withdrawal from our mainland bases in South East Asia by December 31, 1971.
"Malaysia and Singapore reiterated that the defence of their two countries was indivisible and the Conference welcomed the substantial progress made by these two countries and the decisions they have taken to develop their own defence capability. The steps taken by these two Commonwealth countries formed an indispensable background to the work of the Conference as indeed did the decisions announced earlier this year by Australia and New Zealand to maintain forces in the area after our withdrawal.
"The Conference approved the work already done by the three Advisory Working Groups during the past year, set them a programme of further work and instituted a new Joint Service Advisory Working Group to deal particularly with matters which affected more than one of the Services.
"One particular area of importance on which agreement was reached was that of air defence where the Government of Malaysia announced that it had decided to purchase British mobile radar equipment which will enable the 586 present Royal Air Force station at Western Hill to be closed in September, 1971. The new Malaysian radar will form an important component in the integrated system for the air defence of Malaysia and Singapore in which the other four Commonwealth countries will participate and for which Australia offered to provide the first Air Defence Commander.
"Among other practical matters agreed in principle were the establishment of a Commonwealth Jungle Warfare Centre, arrangements for the 1970 major exercise in which all five countries will participate, and training arrangements for all three Services. The next Five-Power Conference will take place some time after the major exercise planned for 1970.
"The Conference took place on the basic understanding that the United Kingdom maintained its decision to withdraw its Forces from the area by the end of 1971. Very considerable progress has been made in the practical steps that need to be taken by the other four Commonwealth countries to establish defence co-operation within the area. The Conference was further evidence of the determination to work together for peace and security and firm foundations have been laid for continuing development. Indeed, the amount of progress that has been made during the past 18 months is remarkable."
§ 4.9 p.m.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am sure that your Lordships are grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the House for repeating that Statement. I am glad to note the progress that has been made in these important discussions in Canberra. Nevertheless, I cannot refrain from voicing our opinion here that these arrangements would have far greater substance were it not for the purely arbitrary decision of the Government to withdraw our own Forces from this area by a purely arbitrary date. There would have been more meaning to these arrangements if we were a full party to them and if in fact there was an assurance of continuing a British military presence in the area, albeit a modest one—provided that it was the wish of the other parties involved—after 1971.
May I put four specific questions to the noble Lord? The first concerns the 587 proposal to establish a Commonwealth jungle warfare centre. I am glad to see that this decision has been taken. Could he tell us where that centre will be established and what the United Kingdom participation in it will be? Second, there are the training arrangements. Will the British be a full party to the proposed co-operative training arrangements? Third, there is the future of the Commonwealth Brigade based at Terendak. Could the noble Lord let us know what the future of that base is likely to be? Fourth, there has been comment in the Press, and I should be very glad to hear anything that the noble Lord can tell us about how many British Servicemen will be remaining in the area after 1971 if the Government's proposals for withdrawal are carried out. Various figures have been quoted and I should like to know whether the noble Lord can give us an estimate of the number and what their role will be.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, on behalf of my noble friends on these Benches I should like to associate myself with what the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, said at the beginning of his questions about the generally satisfactory nature of this Statement. We should like, however, to draw the inference that it substantiates the line which, on behalf of the Liberal Party, I took up in this House early in 1965; namely, that we should do everything we could to give physical support to Malaysia against attack, and indeed against internal subversion, subject to the early announcement of a decision to evacuate our base at Singapore, and subject also to a resolve on our part not to get bogged down in any expensive and interminable jungle war. Recent internal events in Malaysia seem to have validated these conclusions. I would only ask the Government whether they do not think that the findings of the Five-Power Conference have made it increasingly improbable that any successor Government that may be tempted to do so will be able, even if they were willing, to reactivate the Singapore base.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, we had the usual ritual reaction from the noble Earl and we wait with interest for the Conservative policy for continuing a modest presence in the Far East. No doubt they will give us more information 588 on that. But I am very happy to answer, so far as I can, the specific questions put by the noble Earl. First, the training centre is at Ulu Tiram, which I think is in Jahore. This will be a centre in which the British will be playing a very full part and will be sharing their responsibilities with the other countries. On the particular point of the number of British Service men who will be in the area, I may say that in total there will be under 100, and half of which will be at the jungle warfare centre. Some of these will be directly engaged as instructional staff and some will be engaged, presumably, in providing support services in the same way that we have British Service personnel at Ganda. On the future of Terendak, I understand that under the Agreement this is to be handed over to the Malaysian Forces, but if there is any further information which the noble Earl wants on that subject I shall certainly be happy to get it for him.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his answer to my supplementary questions. Could he give me one further piece of information? Will the Service personnel who will be remaining in the area after 1971, according to the Government's plans, be drawn from all three Services?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I cannot answer that point in detail. They will obviously be mainly Army because they will be mainly concerned with the jungle school. There are also plans for exercising not merely the Army and the Air Force but also the Navy, and it may well be that there will be limited—the total number is going to be very small—numbers of representatives of the other Services. But the main component will be at the jungle school. I think more than half of the 100 will be instructional staff.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord where the Australian and New Zealand ground forces will go if it is not to Terendak?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I am sorry, but I am afraid I do not know. Presumably the Air Forces will be at Butterworth, but I do not know the answer. If I am able to get the information for the noble Lord I will, but I do not think that there is time for the message to pass.