HL Deb 27 February 1969 vol 299 cc1196-8

3.7 p.m.

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the light of recent experience in the steel industry, they believe that their proposals in paragraphs 60 and 61 of In Place of Strife (Cmnd. 3888) for the solution of recognition disputes between unions will work in practice.]

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)

Yes, my Lords.

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, but may I nevertheless ask him whether he would not agree that experience so far in this recent dispute (one hopes that it is now at an end, but one fears that it may not be) indicates that it would be not only more democratic but also more decisive to ask the men concerned by secret ballot, grade by grade and plant by plant, what their view is about the union that should represent them.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I do not see how the noble Lord can draw a conclusion from the present difficulties into a future situation. The C.I.R. has not been operating. The whole detailed machinery for dealing with industrial problems is not yet functioning. I do not see that a ballot by itself would provide a solution to this particular dispute. I appreciate what the noble Lord is after, but I do not think he is making much progress.

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that in their negotiations most trade union leaders try to get the greatest good for the greatest number? Therefore, is it not essential that clerical, professional and technical workers should be represented in separate negotiations?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I naturally agree with the first part of my noble friend's question. On the second point, I am not sure that he is not putting his finger on the nub of the particular dispute, on which I think it is better if I do not comment.

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, while hoping with the noble Lord that the decision of the British Steel Corporation will be the end of this particular matter, is it not true that everyone is now exasperated by the state of our industrial relations? We desperately and urgently need legislation. I submit that the time for consultation and the preparation of legislation has passed. Do we not urgently need legislation before us?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I must say to the noble Lord that I should rather prepare my legislation before I publish it.

LORD BYERS

My Lords, I would ask the noble Lord to bear in mind that we want as much consultation as possible before we have the legislation.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I entirely agree. I am not sure whether the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, is trying to be helpful or is trying to extract information, but I think he understands the situation well enough to acknowledge that we are confronted by very difficult problems in the field of industrial relations. The Government have produced their set of proposals, but I think any attempt to impose the proposals overnight would be very counter-productive.