HL Deb 12 February 1969 vol 299 cc418-20

2.42 p.m.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they maintain their decision not to be the first Power to use nuclear weapons in the event of war.]

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, the security of Western Europe rests on NATO'S policy of deterrence effected by posing the threat that large-scale aggression could lead to a nuclear response with consequences unacceptable to the aggressor. Her Majesty's Government cannot, however, conceive of any situation in which it would be sensible or necessary for this country to use nuclear weapons independently.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, whilst thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask him whether that is not some modification of previous attitudes? Had not the representatives both of Her Majesty's Government and of the Opposition said that this country would not be the first to use nuclear weapons; and is it consistent with that pledge that the Minister of Defence should now declare that in answer to conventional weapons nuclear weapons would have to be used by NATO in Europe?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have never made a statement in the terms made out by my noble friend. What has been said is that we would never use military force for aggressive purposes; but that is not the same thing. May I suggest that my noble friend studies precisely what my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence said in his most recently quoted paper which he read in Munich and which, in point of fact, is something that he has been saying for years, although my noble friend may not have noticed it.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in another place I have heard these statements made, both by representatives of the Government and by the Opposition, that we would not be the first to use nuclear weapons in a war but would use them only in defence? Is not the statement that we would use nuclear weapons an incitement to Soviet Russia not to be content with conventional weapons and also to use nuclear weapons in the first instance?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it might be possible to have copies of Mr. Healey's very important statement made available in the Printed Paper Office? I think that copies are available in the Commons Library.

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I will certainly see that that is done, if it is possible; and I believe it is possible.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, will my noble friend answer my question?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, that was a question ago. Would my noble friend state the hard core of what he asked me?

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, in one sentence, is not the declaration that we would use nuclear arms an incitement to Soviet Russia to use them in the first instance?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

No, my Lords; because it has been the stated policy of the Soviet armed forces that nuclear arms will be used from the commencement of hostilities.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, does not my noble friend think that the statement by the Minister of Defence, that we would sink the Russian Navy in five minutes in the Mediterranean, was injudicious?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, that is another question.