HL Deb 11 February 1969 vol 299 cc302-4

2.37 p.m.

THE EARL OF KINNOULL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made with the installation of blind-landing equipment at British airports, and on the aircraft of the national airlines.]

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, Heathrow, Gatwick and Liverpool airports are expected to have facilities to support automatic landing operations in runway visibilities of 500 metres during 1969. The Air Corporations are providing an automatic landing capability for a substantial part of their fleets and it is expected that they will be cleared for operations in these visibilities on the same time scale. Clearance of aircraft and improvement of ground facilities for automatic landing in lower visibilities will follow. The ultimate ideal of a safe system of automatic landing in nil visibility must be approached by stages.

THE EARL OF KINNOULL

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether he could advise the House what types of aircraft and how many aircraft are in fact being fitted with this automatic landing equipment and when it is expected that category IIIB equipment will come into operation?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, on the question of how many aircraft—of course I am referring this answer to the main Question of the noble Lord which deals with the Air Corporation's aircraft—I understand that their Trident aircraft will be cleared for category II operation this year and for category IIIA operations also this year. The BAC 1-11s are being cleared for category II at the moment. The VC 10s of B.O.A.C. are being cleared now for category II and also, it is expected, this year for category IIIA operation.

LORD GRANVILLE OF EYE

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the blind-landing equipment to which he referred is capable of dealing with had fog conditions, and, if not, what progress is being made to deal with this serious hazard at the major airports of this country?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, the term "blind landing" is rather misleading. I am really referring to automatic landing capabilities, both of the aircraft and at the airports, and it is expected gradually to bring down the criteria to the point at which planes can land safely in bad fog. The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, asked me when it is expected that it will be possible to come down in so-called category IIIB conditions—that is to say, operation to and along the surface of the runway and taxiways with visibility sufficient only for visual taxi-ing comparable to a runway range value of the order of 150 feet"— which would be very considerable fog. That state of affairs, my Lords, it is expected will be reached by 1971 or 1972.

THE EARL OF KINNOULL

My Lords, in regard to the ground aid equipment at Heathrow, could the noble Lord say what the capital cost of installation will possibly amount to? And is it in the mind of the Government to offer assistance to other airports for the installation of this equipment?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, the I.L.S. facility is a matter for the Board of Trade; the other ground equipment is a matter for the British Airports Authority, and I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Earl that information. It is expected that on the present programme category II operations will be available for London (Heathrow) on four runways, for London (Gatwick) on two runways, and for Manchester, Liverpool, Prestwick, Glasgow and Birmingham airports; and, later on, for the others.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

My Lords, do I understand the noble Lord correctly?—that this is strictly an improved blind-approach system, not a blind-landing system?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I really thought I had explained that. I am talking about an automatic landing system which, if the pilot so desires, can be used in conditions of quite clear visibility but which will also be usable in conditions of poor visibility. Getting down to conditions of nil visibility is a programme which will be carried out in stages.

LORD ST. HELENS

My Lords, will the Minister be kind enough to tell me whether the passengers in the aircraft will be told whether the aircraft is to be landed by the pilot or by automatic machinery?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, up to now, not only have they been told that but they have been given a free tie, which I thought was most generous on the part of the manufacturers concerned.

LORD BALERNO

My Lords, is the Minister aware that at Turnhouse, Edinburgh, there is probably a greater need for blind-landing facilities than at almost any other airport in the country, owing to the wrong siting of the runways and the costs which are incurred?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, the first question I asked was about Turnhouse airport, knowing that I should get a supplementary question from the noble Lord, Lord Balerno. I am sorry that this is not one of the first airports to be fitted out in this way.