§ 3.42 p.m.
LORDS STONHAMMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to repeat a Statement which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has made in another place about Northern Ireland. The Statement is as follows:
" In the early hours of yesterday morning two serious attacks were made on important public utility installations in Northern Ireland. An electricity pylon was damaged by explosion, and trunk water mains were blown up seriously reducing the supply of water to many thousands of homes. Last evening the Northern Ireland Government requested the assistance of military units stationed in Northern Ireland for the specific purpose of supporting the local police in safeguarding certain key installations essential to the community. Her Majesty's Government immediately authorised the General Officer Commanding Northern Ireland to give such assistance, and troops are today being posted to safeguard certain installations in remote areas, mainly electricity and water supply installations.
"I am sure the House will join with me in condemning these outrages against the life of the community.
" As the House is aware, it has been intended to resume our discussions with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland following the recent General Election there. Captain O'Neill today agreed to this, and I expect a meeting to take place at a very early date.
" I shall of course continue to keep the House informed on progress in these matters."
§ LORD BROOKE OF CUMNORMy Lords, we are all grateful to the noble 318 Lord for repeating the Statement on the disgraceful acts that have been perpetrated in Northern Ireland over the weekend. I have no doubt that your Lordships will all join in denouncing as inexcusable and unforgivable plots to blow up public utilities that exist to provide members of the public with the necessities of life. May I express satisfaction that the United Kingdom Government have at once met the request of the Northern Ireland Government for military protection for such installations? I do not quite understand the phrase in the Statement about Captain O'Neill "finalising an appointment". Is it not desirable that contact between him and United Kingdom Ministers should continue regularly? Is it not desirable also that Captain O'Neill should be given every opportunity to prove that policies of reason and firmness can in time defeat bigotry and violence on both wings?
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, noble Lords on these Benches would join in condemning these outbreaks of violence and, indeed, these outrages which have taken place, and we should support any measures, such as have been outlined, to guard the key installations. But I take it that the Government will agree that it would be quite wrong if troops were used in any way against demonstrators in Ulster, and I take it that it will be their policy to avoid this. Also. I should like to ask whether Her Majesty's Government will take the opportunity of Captain O'Neill's visit to this country (and perhaps we can be told roughly when this will be) to press on him once again the need to remedy the legitimate grievances of the civil rights supporters.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, and the noble Lord, Lord Byers, for their support in the prompt action that Her Majesty's Government have taken in this matter. With regard to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, about "finalising an appointment", if he looks in Hansard to-morrow at the Statement that I made he will see that I did not use that phrase. I agree with him that it would have been an unwise phrase to use. As he is well aware from his experience as 319 Home Secretary, these consultations are continuous. But it is the case that at the meeting which Captain O'Neill had with the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary on November 4 he then and there agreed to recommend five major reforms (if I may use that expression), all of which have since been implemented. However, one major reform about which Captain O'Neill has so far made no announcement is the question of what is called" one man, one vote", in local authority elections. Doubtless that is one of the matters which will be discussed when the Prime Ministers meet again. I think that answers the point raised by the noble, Lord, Lord Byers, about matters which are of concern to many people, including the civil rights demonstrators.
On the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Byers, about the use of troops, they are only to be used, as it were, passively, to guard certain installations, which in the main will be water and electricity installations. At this stage, there is no question whatever of troops being used in any other capacity.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, while paying tribute to the great courage of Captain O'Neill, and deploring, I need hardly say, any violence or brutality from any quarter, may I take it that Her Majesty's Government will agree that there can be no real peace in Northern Ireland until longstanding disabilities are removed, and until civic rights are secured as firmly there as they are in this country?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I would entirely agree with my noble friend, bearing in mind that Northern Ireland is as much a part of the United Kingdom as any other part, that only the removal of any disabilities of that kind suffered by residents in Northern Ireland can form the basis for the removal of other difficulties. But I would add that it is for everyone to do their utmost in their individual capacities, whatever their religion and whatever their thought, to come together in tolerance, and work together for the formation of peaceful conditions in Northern Ireland.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that all of us, strongly as we feel in these matters, deplore this violence, and take the view that it is a 320 disservice to the cause of liberty in Ireland? But does not this trouble arise from the denial of civil liberties, and as a result of religious discrimination in Northern Ireland? Will Her Majesty's Government take great care not to allow the use of troops to be regarded as support for one side in this conflict in Northern Ireland?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, there can be no question of the use of troops on this occasion as supporting anything but law and order. It is quite unthinkable that Her Majesty's Government should have refused a request of this kind which is aimed at assisting to continue law and order.
With regard to the other part of my noble friend's question, I would say that present difficulties had their origins hundreds of years ago. It is about time that everywhere, including your Lordships' House, we should refrain from saying or doing anything which would exacerbate the position, but we should help all those of any shade of opinion who at least are willing to come together to heal the wounds and sores which are centuries old, and help these very worthy people to live in amity together.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, while in every way endorsing the hope the noble Lord has just expressed, may I ask him whether he heard an announcement or statement on the" World at One" programme on the B.B.C. to-day by a leading member of the I.R.A., that in certain circumstances now in Northern Ireland the I.R.A. would come into this conflict in a big way for what they consider to be the protection of the interests of their fellow countrymen? Secondly, in view of the use of troops for the purposes the noble Lord has indicated, with which I entirely agree, may I ask him whether he does not regard this as one more indication of the folly of the Government in destroying so many wonderful infantry regiments which are needed constantly by the Government?
§ LORD RATHCAVANMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that before 1921, when Ulster was governed directly from Whitehall, there were occasions during disturbances in Belfast when troops were used to patrol the streets in the city and to keep order? 321 LORD STONHAM: Yes, my Lords, I am aware of what the noble Lord has said, though not as well aware as he, because he was there. With regard to the point about the use of troops, I may say that the number of troops now in Northern Ireland is quite adequate for the tasks at present imposed on them. There is no question of sending additional troops. I would also tell the noble Lord that the numbers in the Territorial Army in Northern Ireland are not far short of the numbers of Regular troops, and as a result of the policies of this Government they are far better equipped than they would have been.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that this Government have destroyed the Territorial Army in this country, except (he Reserve? Furthermore, if there are Territorials in Northern Ireland, is it now the policy of Her Majesty's Government to use them in support of the civil power?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, they will of course be used in accordance with the policy of Her Majesty's Government if they should be required; but I am sure it is the fervent hope of all your Lordships that their use in that capacity will not be needed.
§ LORD STRANGEMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that while it is probably necessary to guard with troops water supplies and other important utilities in Ireland, they might be attacked by people who try to blow up those water supplies, as they have already done? In that event, the troops would have to resist them, in which case some damage might be done to the attackers and that might be a match in a powder magazine.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, if in the circumstances described by the noble Lord the troops are attacked, they will of course defend themselves, and if anyone is hurt in that process it will be most unfortunate.