LORDS AMENDMENT (Hansard, 23 October 1968)

§ LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth not insist on its Amendment 76 to which the Commons have disagreed. The Amendment excludes construction sites from the definition of "operating centres" and therefore makes it extremely difficult in practice to apply quality licensing to vehicles based there unless 1509 the licensing authorities decide that an operator's licence should be required for a particular site. I draw attention to the Reason that the other place give for the rejection of the Amendment. That is the essence of the Government's objection to the Amendment. We feel that safety would be prejudiced if it remained in the Bill.

The Government fully understand the special position of the construction industry in this respect. They are continually moving vehicles about and setting up new operating centres. We certainly do not want to burden the industry with unnecessary controls. This is why Clause 61(2)(b) will provide that vehicles can operate on a site for up to three months without the site becoming an operating centre or a transport manager being required. This provision is in fact a concession made at an earlier stage in another place, and was welcomed at that time by the Opposition, and I would mention it particularly because of the assistance which the construction industry will get from that concession.

My Lords, there is an even more important concession from the point of view of the building industry, which is contained in Clause 65(3). This provides that, while the licensing authorities will start from the premise of one transport manager for each operating centre, they will have complete discretion to allow one manager to supervise several centres if the operator can show that this would not be an unsafe arrangement. Licensing authorities will doubtless have the problems of the construction industry very much in mind when application is made to them for the nomination of one transport manager to take responsibility for more than one operating centre. But the licensing authority must be free to take this decision in the light of individual circumstances. We believe that these arrangements are capable of meeting the special needs of the construction industry. We believe, also, that any further relaxation would prejudice safety. For those reasons, I ask the House not to insist upon its Amendment.

§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord Lord Winterbottom, for explaining to us why this Amendment was disagreed to in another place. The Amendment only a change of emphasis. All the Amendment does is to put into positive foam the licensing officer's discretion to allow more than one construction centre to come under one transport manager, whereas the clause as now drafted puts it the other way round and say that, unless in any case the licensing authority in its discretion otherwise determines, it shall be one for each.

The point here, my Lords, is the very simple one that each additional transport manager will, of course, cost money. You will have not only the transport manager, but he will have a secretary, an office, a telephone and so on. All this adds to the building costs. Building costs have been rising most alarmingly in the last few years. It is in everybody's interests to try to stop them from rising. Although we want the system of transport managers—we recognise that it is a good thing, and certainly in some parts of the building industry it will be particularly welcome—what we are concerned with here is to avoid unnecessarily increasing costs while giving the benefit of the innovation.

My Lords, what I would ask for here is that when the Minister decides the appointed day for introducing transport managers, he should tell the licensing authorities that, while they are to interpret Clause 65(3) with the utmost responsibility and caution, a large construction firm, or even a small construction firm, which has a number of construction sites can permit one transport manager to look after more than one site if the licensing officer is satisfied that this will be a safe arrangement. I think it usually will be safe to do so. I just want to make sure that we do not add unnecessarily to costs. There is no great difference between us in principle, and for these reasons we do not dissent.