HL Deb 16 October 1968 vol 296 cc1420-34

6.30 p.m.

THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will re-invigorate the Territorial Organisation of drill halls as centres for voluntary social service and recreation. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to ask the Unstarred Question standing in my name. I should like first of all to thank their Lordships who have kindly remained for this moment. I have already given the noble Lord opposite notice of the few words I wish to say, which seek to show what a vacuum in the lives of some of the best of our younger generation has been created by the Government's decision to close down the T.A. and its drill halls.

Of course, it is true to say that when the decision was made the European skies seemed clearer than they do now. We know better now. The drill halls were centres of convenient access in the evenings after a man's work. There he found comradeship, incentives to train himself in other things besides athletics, and a source of emulation among his fellows. The armorials on the walls of the various doings of two preceding generations were a spur to his pride in his county and to his ambitions. Now the Government have decided to quash this movement without offering an alternative. Was it rather a lack of imagination or insufficient sensitivity to the feelings of those concerned? Could greater effort toward collaboration between the Defence Department and the Education Department have been pressed?

The rigid Civil Service rules say that when such properties are for disposal they must be offered first to other Departments, then to local authorities, and lastly on the open market. Some drill halls, of course, are held, or were held, under trust deeds; some were provided by subscription. May I earnestly suggest that such halls as belong to the Defence Department should be leased to the new occupier with the proviso for a break clause should national wishes for a resumption of occupancy obtain? I was informed in July that 624 halls out of double that number were in process of seeking new ownership. Perhaps 400 are now still on offer. Should Government wish to speed up collaboration between the Defence Ministry and that of Education, allied with the Sports Ministry, could they co-opt individuals specially known for interest in the youth movements, with a view to preserving the accommodation that remains in hand for the continued use of the best of all clubs by those who have hitherto gained much benefit therefrom?

6.34 p.m.

LORD ROBERTSON OF OAKRIDGE

My Lords, the words in the Question put forward by the noble Earl, Lord Albemarle, which prompt my few remarks, are those which speak of "centres for voluntary social service and recreation". Three or four weeks ago I was on the platform of a large meeting, a meeting of youth leaders—full-time paid youth leaders and many voluntary unpaid youth leaders—and when the formal speeches had been made the chairman asked the conference whether anybody would like to say something. A young fellow stood up and made as bitter a speech as I ever have heard anyone make on such an occasion. Can nobody, he asked, do anything to persuade our Government to take some interest in youth work and to give us some help? He then went on to tell us of the position in his town where he lives and works. He described the recreational facilities as lamentable. He said that if only he had more accommodation he could easily double the membership of his club in a week. He ended up by saying "We are back in the pre-Albemarle days".

There was a member of the local education authority on the platform, and he answered this speech, quite properly, by reminding the speaker that Government money is tight and that the Government have many demands and cannot meet them all. But I went up to speak to the fellow afterwards, and I found him very little satisfied by that reply. Then another leader came up to me and asked me whether I would meet some of the members of his boys' committee. We went away and sat down in a railway coach—never mind how we got it out of British Rail; but we did—and these fellows put their point of view. They were a bunch of young thugs who a year or two ago were virtually terrorising the countryside, careering about on their 'bikes, making a nuisance of themselves at roadside cafés and generally acting in a thoroughly unsocial manner. Then they were persuaded to form themselves into a club. The idea was a great success. They had a hundred members quite quickly, and they learnt to behave themselves well and to do things for the good of the community. Unfortunately, the premises in which they had their club were declared unserviceable, and members were told they would have to be pulled down. They made every effort they could to get new premises, but none could be found; and no money way available for the purpose.

I drove home that night feeling very sad about the things I had been told, and my mind went back to the debate that we had on youth in this Chamber last February. And I blamed myself again, as I have done indeed repeatedly since that debate, for my complete failure to evoke any enthusiasm at all from the Government Benches for the cause I was trying to plead. I hope that those two stories have not bored your Lordships. They do not, of course, in themselves, constitute arguments; but perhaps, like the illustrations in a book, they serve to make the text more palatable and more convincing. Much has happened since last February. We have had the events of the Soronne, and in Berlin and in Rome, in Berkeley and in other places, not excluding Mexico City, and even Grosvenor Square. I doubt whether some of the expressions about youth rebellion which were used by Government spokesmen in that debate would be used in the same language again to-day.

Be that as it may, my Lords, it is not nice to hear a fellow stand up and say, "We are back in the pre-Albemarle days". To-day a second Albemarle is come to judgment, and he comes to us with a simple proposal—a proposal which, so far as one can see, should not cost a lot of money. He does not propose heavy expenditure by the Government. The noble Earl is as well aware as I am that the Government have many difficulties, and that the call for money is constant, and it is very hard indeed for them to meet all demands. That we understand. But I think he was urged to put down his Question, as I am urged to support it, because we are both men who believe that the future of the country we love rests with our youth. We are both men who have a profound faith in the youth of this country, but we are both men who fear that our generation, and the generation that is governing the country at the present time, are failing in their responsibility to encourage youth and to give youth the facilities which they need to lead the life that will make them true upholders of the great tradition which they have been fortunate enough to inherit.

6.41 p.m.

THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY

My Lords, the Territorial Army has gone; its successors, T. & A.V.R. III, misleadingly called Territorials, are fighting for survival. But even if they do survive they will still have need for only a few of the drill halls which they have inherited. Therefore it seems logical to sell or otherwise dispose of the now unwanted drill halls.

It seems logical to whom? To me it seems to be a non sequitur of the most complete kind. As has been made perfectly clear in the terms of my noble friend's Question, and also by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Oakridge, this debate is not about defence but about the redundancy of drill halls, which has come about as a result of reductions in our defensive power, and therefore it is of considerable importance to remember why those reductions were made. The appreciation that led to those reductions was not strategic, it was economic; they were not made because for Great Britain the world had suddenly become safe but because, as the noble Lord has pointed out, the Government believed (and rightly) that we could no longer afford to continue as a great military Power.

With the question of whether we can or cannot afford a Territorial Army we are not at the moment concerned, so I take it there is no objection to accepting, for the sake of argument only, that it is true. But we cannot say that we shall never need it, or something like it, in the future. Yet the Government have embarked on a course, as was made most abundantly clear by the noble Duke, the Duke of Norfolk, in his memorable speech last January, that will make it impossible to re-raise such a force. Once the Territorials are disposed of, that is the end of them.

For such irreversibility in policy there can be only two possible reasons. One is that the Government intend that we shall never again have such a Territorial Army, whether we can afford it or not; the other is that the Government are convinced that we shall never again be able to afford it. I am inclined to think that the latter view may be correct, so far as the present Government are concerned, but I believe that we do need such a force and that, anyway in time, we shall be able to afford it again. But by that time it may be too late: we may be in the position, militarily speaking, of the man who, finding he cannot afford a car for the next few years, not only sells his car but pulls down his garage as well. Or, to put it another way, it is like demolishing the bridges on an abandoned railway, on the assumption, "We do not need the railway any more, so let us make it impossible for anyone else to use it as a road".

It may perhaps be said that in the great operation of dismantling the nation's defences the disposal of a few hundred drill halls does not bulk very large. I disagree; but I do not propose to argue the matter on purely military grounds. A drill hall is something more than a hall for drill. These centres vary in size and complexity, but, taken in the aggregate, they are also headquarters and offices, equipped with heating and plumbing and the like; they are rifle ranges, armouries and stores. All of these things, of course, are primarily for soldiers. But they are also canteens and messes and clubs; and they are places where, in the past, all kinds of social and charitable activities have taken place. But even if you add together all these activities, the social and the military, you will not by that means alone arrive at a grasp of the full significance of the drill hall, because the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

To begin with, there is a curious overlapping or interweaving between the military and the social functions of the drill hall. Possibly I should have spoken of that in the past tense, but never mind. This interweaving comes from an impalpable quality which derives from the word "Territorial". In cities and in small and distant towns the drill hall has for generations been the meeting place of soldier and civilian, the two being in most cases one and the same man—or, more recently, woman. It was here that your neighbour, your employer, your friend the postman, or the farmer, and perhaps you yourself, simply by a change of clothes, slipped easily into a different world. In this comradely world relationships were changed, sometimes turned upside down so that the taker of orders became for a time the giver, and sometimes vice versa, with benefit to both; and all learned that the military discipline of the Territorial Army was in fact self-discipline, voluntarily accepted and backed by only the most tenuous of sanctions.

It was unwise to brush all that aside simply by saying that it is all over now; for the cumulative effect of it all was something more significant than the simple things that I have described, valuable though they were. The effect was that the drill hall formed a visible link between the citizen and the Armed Forces of the Crown and symbolised, for all to see, the spirit of service to the community unselfish, patriotic and unpaid. This being so, drill halls stood for something vital, not only for the safety of the nation but also for its spiritual health; and they could—and I believe should—continue so to do.

My noble friend has not asked the Government to preserve them as tombstones or memorials of the dead past: he has asked whether they will reinvigorate them as centres for social service and recreation. Both these subjects we have had debated in the past months, notably in a debate initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Oakridge, earlier in the year, and also in a debate on sport initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Willis. I think there is great difficulty in drawing a line between social activities and activities of social service: there is no particular reason to try to separate one from the other: they are both functions Or needs—or both—of the young. But so far as the needs are concerned this particular type of need is, in my opinion, gravely neglected. Some may feel that, whether these activities are one or the other, emphasis falls chiefly upon the social service, whether given or received. But there is no doubt, I think, that for social service among the young there is a most clamorous demand which is not being met, and that demand comes not least from those who wish to give the service. There is all too little from those who might benefit from it.

These drill halls ought to be preserved by the State if they are owned by the Defence Department or by the Territorial Associations. They may be made over to local authorities for letting or for use, as indeed in many cases they are; but what is important, I believe, is that they should not simply be sold off to the highest bidder, regardless of what happens to them. They should be preserved in such a way that they can be used for the public and not turned into factories or in any way rendered unusable for their true purpose; and they should remain available for repossession. The name boards of the regiments whose homes these drill halls once were should be preserved inside them, if it is not too late, as links with, and reminders an honourable tradition. It would not cost very much, and they could be devoted to purposes which I believe would repay the cost a hundredfold. Moreover, the garage would still be there whenever we have a Government that manage; our affairs skilfully enough to enable us to run a car.

The halls formed a small but not negligible part of the arterial system in which once the pulse of the nation beat. Cannot some thought be given to methods of putting new life and vigour into them, or (in the admirably chosen word of my noble friend) "reinvigorating them? There must be some in the Goverrment, if not in the Treasury, who have the vision to see that these are not mere redundant barns but vital and valuable reminders of the past and an insurance against need or peril in the days to come. Again—and this is the important point they can be used; they represent, they are an inspiration to and a ready made focus for, the generous spirit of to-day.

LORD SINCLAIR OF CLEEVE

My Lords, I hope that having given due notice, your Lordships will allow me, although my name does not appear on the list of speakers, to make a very brief intervention. It is of course to support most warmly the arguments which are inherent in the Question asked by my noble friend Lord Albemarle and supported by my noble friends Lord Robertson of Oak-ridge and Lord Cork and Orrery. Having been a Territorial myself, I have a sentimental affection for these halls. I have seen them in operation and use, in addition to the purposes that have been mentioned to-night, particularly by the cadet forces which have been a tremendous source of strength to this country.

There is one possible use to which I should like to refer, to which I hope the Government may give consideration, and that derives from the experience in recent months of natural disasters in this country, where former civil defence volunteers organised themselves in a most admirable and effective way to give help where help was so badly needed. Round this nucleus of ex-civil defence volunteers I am sure there can be built, and would want to be built, voluntary organisations which could be of immense value to the community, and these drill halls would form admirable headquarters for such organisations.

LORD TEVIOT

My Lords, I should like to say a very brief word about another aspect of this question, and that is the excellence of converting the old type of drill hail, especially with a height of 30 feet and upwards, into covered tennis courts. It goes without saying that covered tennis courts are essential for winter training for all players, particularly those of international standing who compete against players from countries which have more equable weather than ours. At the moment there is a great dearth of these covered courts because they are extremely costly to build. It would be of great help to the Lawn Tennis Association and their subordinate bodies if they were able to obtain some of these drill halls, or have access to them, which are readily convertible at very low cost. Therefore, I would appreciate it if the Minister would give this side of the question his due consideration.

6.56 p.m.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, I apologise to your Lordships for not adding my name to the list; I was anxious to take part in the debate but uncertain about my time of arrival. This is a subject which interests me greatly. I have served in a Territorial Army unit although never a Territorial, and I have served as a volunteer when very young in one of these drill halls to which we are referring. I am old enough to remember the circumstances in which many of them were brought into being, and both as a Minister and when I was a Member of another place, I have done some research into this subject.

One question I should like to ask the noble Lord who is to reply is just how many millions of pounds Her Majesty's Government are collecting as a result of the disposal of the drill halls. Be it remembered that considerable numbers of these drill halls—the noble Lord who opened the debate gave some figures which had been given to him and which I believe to be accurate—were brought into being through public subscription. The money was raised as a result of local enthusiasms, and the drill halls certainly played a major part in the life of the community, of which in many cases they formed a central point. Times change, but that does not mean to say that any Government, and a Government of which recently I was a member, has a right to come along willy-nilly, change their policy and pick up very considerable sums which have been raised by other people's sacrifice and effort and just leave it at that. I think that there ought to be a progressive policy. I have always thought so and have advocated it for long years, sometimes at the top of my voice, both in relation to the development and recruitment of Reserve forces, their use, and the Territorial Army. I am not sure that I would find myself in complete agreement with all your Lordships' views about the use of the Territorials and Reserves at the present time.

But my case is a rather different one. I begin by saying that I do not accept the military case that is made out for the T. & A.V.R. III but the point is that the previous Administration, in the Defence White Paper of 1957, for better or worse, decided to abandon conscription as a method of raising the Armed Forces of the Crown. Again, I was not a party to that decision, although my own Party supported it. It was a decision that was taken with the support of the House of Commons, although it did not carry me with it—and of course I realise that it is futile to protest against this policy now because the matrix of conscription has been broken. But the logic of the action taken by the Government ten years ago is that you depend upon voluntary recruiting, and it is palpable to anybody who studies this subject that voluntary recruiting in this country has broken down. There is going to be no Regular Army. It fills me with dismay when I listen to some of the protests raised about what has happened in Czechoslovakia, or the nonsense talked about the defence of Europe or East of Suez. We have no Regular Army; it is run down; and the rate of recruitment now (the figures are published every month, but they do not arouse much interest and certainly no enthusiasm) means that in the 'seventies the Regular Army will not amount to 120,000.

Now that conscription has been abandoned the future of this country depends upon the retention and development of the voluntary spirit. I suppose that I am old enough, and served long enough in the Armed Forces of the Crown, in a very humble capacity, to qualify now for the title of "Colonel Blimp," and if "Colonel Blimp" I am in thinking that the day may come when a disciplined force may again be needed. I am very glad indeed to serve alongside "Colonel Blimp".

Here I would point out that, with the exception of Canada, Britain is the only country in NATO which does not have some form of compulsory service. How do you talk to your NATO partners? How do you talk to the other members of the Commonwealth? What is the good of talking about an East-of-Suez policy while both Australia and New Zealand have some form of conscription and we have none? And it is as plain as a pikestaff that these drill halls are centres—focal points. I am not advocating that every drill hall in every back street should be kept in being, but I am supporting the noble Lords who have spoken before me when they say that we are forced by the very policies of the present Government, and its predecessor, to support the voluntary principle at all costs; and the drill halls and the T. & A.V.R. III enshrine just that principle of voluntary service which is vital to the security of this country.

I have never believed in the nonsense that you must have the nuclear weapon to be able to talk at the council tables of the great. I do not believe that What makes a country great is not weapons; it is the spirit of its people. If there is a disposition, as there is at present, to put ball-bearings under policemen's horses hooves so that they slip up, and so that people can bash the policemen over the head with an empty beer bottle—that is the mood of the time—hen it is vitally necessary not that there should be a disciplined force to come along and hit those people over the head with two beer bottles, but that there should be a volunteer force which, by its devotion and its example to public service, the fact that it will give up some part of its space time in the service of the community in defence of the concept of law, will become a national obligation of the highest possible order. I apologise for coming late this evening to raise my voice, but it is for this reason that I wholeheartedly support the noble Earl on this Question.

7.2 p.m.

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, I have only a few points to add to those spoken of by other noble Lords on this matter. I think we are all glad it has been raised—it is clear that those who have spoken are glad—and we are grateful to my noble friend Lord Albemarle for raising it. The Government will not learn anything about our attitude and conviction on this matter from anything I shall say this evening. We have been perfectly consistent, and indeed latterly we have had increasingly consistent cause for anxiety as to the survival of the Volunteer Reserve Forces which depend so considerably upon the drill halls which we are discussing.

We understood that the Government are now thinking again about the force levels of the Reserve Forces. Indeed, it would be remarkable if they were lot, in the light of the new thinking in NATO, and indeed in all other defence organisations in the Free World, concerning the increased importance of conventional warfare and the forces required for it. I wish that it were clearer that the Government were not as determined as they sometimes, indeed often, appear to be to emasculate the Reserve Forces upon which the Regular Forces will depend in the event of hostilities, and upon which they feel they depend already. I do not believe that the Regular Army is as far beyond recall as seems to be the view of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg. We know how anxious and worried they are at what is being done to the Reserve Forces. The successor units of the Territorial Army will obviously have to play an essential role in any Reserve Forces.

For the past two or three years only I have been colonel of a T. & A.V.R.II regiment. Therefore my experience does not go back over decades, as does that of the noble Lord, Lord Wigg. None the less, I am aware—one cannot have anything to do with these forces without being aware—of the spirit which gives and sustains impetus. This spirit needs physical centres, bricks and mortar establishments. I am told, outside my own area, that in Scotland and in Wales, for instance, the feeling about the need for these buildings is even stronger.

It may be that drill halls have been under-employed recently. Nobody that I know of inside the Volunteer Forces themselves, or in the associations, would object to the buildings being used for other purposes which did not inhibit or reduce or destroy their usefulness to the proper occupiers, their usefulness to the original idea. This, I think, is one of the only two direct questions that I should like to put to the noble Lord opposite. We wish to be assured that if these buildings are transferred to other uses and therefore, for that reason, placed in other hands, they will always be available for this primary purpose as well as any secondary purpose, however useful or commendable. We should also like an assurance from the Government that no drill halls have been disposed of so far, or at least disposed of beyond recovery.

It seems an excellent idea that these buildings should be of a dual, or even treble or quadruple purpose in character. As a result, there have been to-night no bitter words of any kind, though I think we should understand the cause for bitterness of which the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Oakridge spoke, though not directly as feeling that bitterness himself. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, as reasonable a character as we know in this House, will wish to be able to respond as reasonably as he can to the pleas and arguments gently put forward tonight. I also hope that his words, if they have that character, will also be significant.

7.7 p.m.

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I know the House will excuse me if I direct my remarks to the Question of the noble Earl, Lord Albemarle, rather than to the debate that has developed from it, on the virtues of the Territorial Army and its successor. Before answering the noble Earl, I should like to make one point. What has been said in this House to-night need not necessarily be taken as falling on deaf ears. Noble Lords will remember the point made on the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy, paragraph 64 of which ends with these words A review is therefore being carried out to determine what changes might profitably be made in the training and other commitments of T. & A.V.R. I and II, and in the organisation of other sections of the reserves in order to meet the new situation. This review will take a few months. While it is going on, T. & A.V.R. III units will remain in being on the present basis against the possibility that some modest expansion of the facilities and manpower for T. & A.V.R. I and II may be desirable and can be afforded. It is hoped to make a further announcement later in the year. This subject is still under consideration; an announcement has not been made, and events in Eastern Europe and your Lordships' remarks must be factors that are considered by the Defence Ministry when reaching a decision upon this residual group of drill halls, which are not negligible in number. There is indeed a substantial number of this type of building in being.

Having said that, I should like to turn to the matter contained in the noble Earl's Question. As he knows, we had a most stimulating conversation on this subject in the late summer. He and I are in substantial sympathy with a greater social use of these drill halls once they have been given up. Of course, the noble Earl will be familiar with the procedure. If a drill hall is no longer required by the Territorial Army organisations it must be offered to one of the Service Departments. The next bodies in priority are the other Government Departments. Then come the local authorities. Finally, if none of these bodies requires the drill hall, then, and only then, is it sold on the open market.

This is a point which I should like to make straight away. Much as one would like to retain the ownership of these halls and to lease them, unfortunately this is statutorily not possible. There is, however, one interesting point, which indeed I think is not generally known. A substantial number of them have been retained by local authorities for sporting purposes, and this use has a very high priority in their disposal. This use has a priority nearly as high as that of a Government Department. It is an anomalous situation, and I will read an official note on the position: A Government Department takes precedence over a local authority unless the hall is required for housing, in which case it takes equal precedence. However, if the local authority wishes to purchase the hall for conversion to a sports centre the Ministry of Housing and Local Government will make representations to try and persuade the Government Department to forgo its claims. Those are words. I speak from experience in this matter, because I am chairman of the East Midlands Sports Council. As noble Lords will know, when the initial batch of drill halls was thrown up we, in the East Midlands, and I expect everywhere else, carried out a very thorough survey of the drill halls in the region, which is a substantial one, spreading from Derbyshire to Kesteven and South to Northamptonshire, to see which of them could be retained for use as sports and recreational centres. In fact, I am glad to tell the House that we got every one we asked for: in fact we got them all for the purposes which the noble Earl has so close to his heart and which the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Oakridge, is also so concerned about. I have figures here, but unfortunately they are not clear as to how many actually went for sporting facilities; but of the drill halls disposed of up to September 30, 1968, 149 went to local authorities, and I suspect a substantial number of these were in fact used for sports facilities.

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, if the noble Lord would permit me to interrupt, may I ask how many in fact have been disposed of altogether? The noble Lord has told us the proportion that went in that way.

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I can. For use by other Service Departments, 26; going to other Government Departments, 38; to local authorities, 149; and sold on the open market, 69. That is the position as at the end of September this year.

LORD WIGG

My Lords, would the noble Lord be kind enough to tell us the actual amount of money which has been raised as a result of their being disposed of?

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I will write to the noble Lord about this. I cannot give him an answer immediately. He unfortunately, as a former Paymaster General, knows as well as anyone where it goes.

I should like to answer one point made by the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, about the use of these drill halls for indoor tennis courts. I should have thought the Lawn Tennis Association would have approached the sports Council and put their case to it. This is an eminently suitable use for these particular halls if they are the correct size, and I should be very surprised indeed if somewhere or other along the line approaches have not been made through the Sports Council and the regional bodies.

LORD TEVIOT

My Lords, I had a word with the Lawn Tennis Association this afternoon and they were quite keen for me to bring this up. I will certainly let them know what the noble Lord has said and tell them to get in touch with the Sports Council.

LORD WINTERBOTTOM

My Lords, I am certain my namesake, who is responsible, will give them a sympathetic hearing. Those really are the only words of comfort that I can speak this evening. It would need a wider debate with a more senior Minister to discuss the wider issues of the future of the Territorial Army. The noble Earl is not alone in his concern, and from my own personal experience in the East Midlands I can say that we have not been unsuccessful in retaining a number of these halls for the purpose which he has close to his heart.

House adjourned at fourteen minutes past seven o'clock.