BAN ON ARMS TO SOUTH AFRICA (Hansard, 28 November 1968)

§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD SHEPHERD)
My Lords, when Her Majesty's Government considered their policy on the supply of arms to South Africa they took into account all the economic, defence and political issues involved, and the two points detailed in the Question formed part of those considerations.

§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY
My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord, may I take it from the Answer that it is not the intention of the Government to give any consideration to the lifting of the ban on the export of arms for the external defence of the Cape shipping route? Is that the position?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware—and I hope he will refresh his memory on the Question and Answer in February—the Government have imposed this embargo following the resolution of the United 1298 Nations. Their position is to-day what it was in February.

THE EARL, OF SELKIRK
My Lords, does the noble Lord not find it useful in maintaining the Beira patrol to use Simonstown?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, Simonstown is a very important naval facility which we very much appreciate—and so too, I believe, does South Africa.

§ THE EARL OF GLASGOW
My Lords, may I ask whether it is Government policy to refute or refuse all responsibility now for the defence of the Cape route, so far as the Royal Navy is concerned?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
No, my Lords, we have a responsibility, and certainly the Cape route is of prime importance to us. But our policy in regard to South Africa remains as has been stated in the past.

§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY
My Lords, reverting to the United Nations resolution, may I ask whether the noble Lord remembers that when that resolution was passed through the United Nations it was made quite clear by Her Majesty's Government that it would not be interpreted as applying to the exports of arms for the external defence of South Africa? Therefore that resolution is no excuse for maintaining this disastrous ban.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lord, the noble Lord has put his point very cleverly in the form of a question. If the noble Lord will look at the United Nations resolution he will see that it calls for an embargo on a whole series of weapons and ammunition; and with this we comply.

§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE
My Lords, apropos this unrequited benefit from the Cape of Good Hope route, will the noble Lord take note of a lesson to be learned from a couplet in an old soldiers' song which I shall quote? The song is about naughty daughter and the lines are: But her poor misguided parents in the village where they live, Though they drink the wine she sends them, yet they never will forgive.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord might later give me the reference to that poem. I am sure 1299 that there may be other words that I might usefully quote.

§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE
I will sing it to the noble Lord.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
My Lords, may we hope that this decision about the coastal defence of South Africa is not a permanent one? There are two quite different problems here, as I know the noble Lord realises. One is whether the arms could be used within the borders of South Africa and the other is the coastal defence. I appreciate that the United Nations' resolution applied to both; but for all of us here they are two different problems, and I hope they are so for Her Majesty's Government also. Could we have an assurance that the door is not utterly closed over coastal defence?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Marquess has been long enough in politics, and I perhaps sufficiently long, to know that the door is never closed.

LORD TEYNHAM
My Lords, may I ask whether the Government are aware of the feelings of disquiet felt by masters of ships trading to the Far East and the Cape at the future lack of protection in these waters?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I well understand the views of ship masters, particularly in the lightly of comments made by political leaders in this country; but the risks that shipping is likely to face would not, I believe, be eased in any way by a change of our policy.

§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD
My Lords, can the noble Lords tell me how a guided missile or a frigate can be used to put down a hypothetical African riot?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I hope that the noble Viscount will look at the answers that I have given this afternoon and also at the answers that my noble friend Lord Chalfont gave last February. What we are seeking to do is to implement the United Nations' resolution which many other countries have complied with.

§ LORD MERRIVALE
My Lords, may I ask to what extent the French Government have gained from the point of view 1300 of prestige and influence, and economically, in view of the supply of technicians and advisory personnel in Simonstown and the supply of military equipment? What have they gained arising out of the Government's policy?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I will be quite honest. I sought to prepare myself for this House's normally wide-ranging supplementary questions but I am afraid that I have not got those facts. If the noble Lord cares to put down a Question I will seek to answer it.

§ THE EARL OF DUNDEE
My Lords, the noble Lord said just now that a great many other countries had complied with the United Nations resolution. Would he not care to add that all those who have complied with it had been those who did not want to send arms to South Africa, anyway; whereas those who did have cut us out?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, may I refresh the noble Earl's memory? The United States complies with the resolution.

§ THE EARL OF SWINTON
My Lords, having made the Simonstown Agreement with Field Marshal Lord Alexander, may I ask the noble Lord what is the total amount that we have lost in orders by carrying out this so-called resolution?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, here again it is difficult to give an assessment. Clearly, the question of arms supplies is one of the most competitive fields of industry and commerce. It must depend very much on what the South Africans wish to be supplied with, those countries who are willing to tender and, in the end, what South Africa herself decides to buy.

§ LORD STRATHCLYDE
My Lords, can the noble Lord say what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the defence of shipping forced to use the Cape route in the event of war?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, here again we have a hypothetical question. Where is there going to be a war around the South African coast that would threaten our shipping? If it were a war on a much larger scale, then it would not be the British or even the South Africans standing alone—at least I hope not—but some security organisation with the United States.

§ LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he thinks that the United Nations could provide the necessary protection for this?

§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)
My Lords, may I suggest, as we have another Question following this which is likely to give rise to at least as many supplementary questions, that we might move on to that one? I do not like to come between two ex-Leaders of this House, but we have really had our quota; we have had eight minutes on this Question.

§ THE EARL OF SWINTON
My Lords, it is all very well to ride roughshod over us like that, but may I put this supplementary question? Is it not a fact that the South African Government put on record and delivered a list of exactly what were the arms and equipment which they desired to buy from us?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I understand that there was no specific shopping list. There was a rough indication some many months ago, but since then, and in view of our attitude, we have had no approaches by the South African Government.