§ 4.15 p.m.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE, ROYAL AIR FORCE (LORD WINTERBOTTOM)My Lords, with permission of the House, I will now repeat a Statement which has been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of Defence for Administration. It is as follows:
"The Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy of last July explained that we were reviewing the Army Reserves. The review has been virtually completed and I can now inform the House of our main conclusion.
"There will be a relatively small increase of some 2,000 in the establishment of TAVR II, mainly for logistic support in our increased NATO contribution.
"We have decided to cease recruiting 'Ever-Readies'—the Special Army Volunteer Reserve. The 'Ever-Readies' were not well recruited and in any case we consider that the tasks for which they were designed can now be better carried out by Regulars.
"I shall at a later date be making a Statement about the future of the Army General Reserve. This is a pool of about 170,000 National Servicemen, of whom some 15,000 are currently required on mobilisation. We plan to meet this requirement from other sources as soon as we possibly can. The Regular Reserve will be growing in size over the next few years and this will help, but we shall also have to place greater reliance on the Volunteer Reserve. To this end we are increasing the establishment of individual volunteers in TAVR II by a further 3,000.
"The disbandment of TAVR III (the Territorials) was announced on January 16 this year as part of the process of putting Civil Defence on to 1323 a care and maintenance basis. One of the objects of our review was to employ the assets of TAVR III to make good the manning shortfall in TAVR II. We intend to give every encouragement to Territorials to join the TAVR II, and we hope that many of them will do so.
"But the influx of Territorials we hope for will be a one-time bonus. We have decided that two permanent changes are necessary.
"First, we intend to draw on the recruiting potential of a much wider area by transferring about 100 of the training centres of the Territorials to TAVR II.
"Secondly, experience has shown that the amount of full-time training currently required of members of TAVR II with its extensive demands on the spare time of the volunteer has a discouraging effect on the retention of trained men. We have decided to allow a limited number of trained men to undertake, with the agreement of their commanding officers, a rather less onerous training obligation. By thus improving the state of manning, we aim to improve the overall efficiency of Volunteer units.
"Finally, we intend to establish up to 100 cadres, each of about 8 officers. N.C.O.s and men, and each attached to a unit of TAVR II.
"These cadres will take some of the peace-time administrative work off the shoulders of the Officers and N.C.O.s of the TAVR II units, who will thereby be enabled to concentrate more on their military training. They will act as rear parties for those units on mobilisation. In addition, they will provide nuclei around which units could be formed when minor changes are made in the TAVR II order of battle; or if circumstances were to necessitate a sudden expansion of Reserves; or if circumstances after mobilisation were to necessitate the formation into units, to meet a military requirement, of Regular Reservists not needed for the Regular Army.
"We expect that most, if not all, of the regimental titles of the former 1324 TAVR III units will be preserved by conferring these on the cadres.
"We are thus bringing the order of battle of the Volunteer Reserves up to date on a simplified organisational structure; we are taking steps to make the best use of the assets of TAVR III, and to bring about improvement in the recruiting of TAVR II.
"My last word is to the Territorials. I would like to thank them for the service they have given in TAVR III. I would like to express our appreciation of their patience during the past year of uncertainty. Finally, I would like to say how much we hope that they will seek to transfer to the Volunteers."
My Lords, that is the end of my right honourable friend's Statement.
§ 4.21 p.m.
LORD THURLOWMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving us this Statement. Noble Lords on all sides of the House are aware that we on these Benches have given the pledge to recreate some form of Territorial Army because we felt, and we still feel, that home defence is of the utmost importance. With the great reduction in Regular forces a well-trained Reserve capable of expansion is essential, and anything that is proposed to improve the present position is welcomed. The announcement in January to disband the TAVR III shocked us, and I should like to pay a great tribute to the personnel of TAVR III who are now going to disappear as such. I was most impressed, and many of us were, at their devotion during the summer in going to camp without pay or allowance or transport, but going at their own expense. We alone among the NATO countries appear to consider that home defence is of no importance, and if this Statement and the plans of the Government go against this dangerous attitude of the past we shall welcome it.
We note from the Statement that there is to be only a relatively small increase in TAVR II at the expense of the "Ever-Readies", and again I should like to pay a tribute to the "Ever-Readies" who are now to disappear. We shall look at the details of this proposal. We support the Government in giving all encouragement to personnel to join 1325 TAVR II. They have done a spendid job, at the expense of great demands on their time and sacrificing holidays with their families, and really their first year has been most successful. The Statement does not forecast any more units, but only a few more individuals. I do not know whether your Lordships noticed that the final communiqué at the Ministerial session of the NATO Council on November 15 said that the quality of reserve forces will also be improved and their ability to mobilise rapidly will be increased. There is not much in this Statement that encourages us to think that this has been taken to heart, and I would ask the Minister whether this plan is intended in any way to meet the sentiments expressed in this NATO communiqué. We certainly hope that it does.
As regards the less onerous training for some of the personnel in TAVR II, we agree with that. It is impossible for many of our excellent and highly-trained men to give up all the time required, and it is quite possible, I am sure, to carry in units a certain number who do not undertake such big commitments. We think that the proposals for the 100 cadres is certainly a step in the right direction and we welcome it, but we must look into it to see whether 100 cadres of a few men is really going to be capable of forming units quickly in time of mobilisation. This is doubtful, and we should like to hear more about it in due course. I should like to ask the Minister if he can tell me whether the personnel in these 100 cadres—I think it was six to eight officers, N.C.O.s and men—are to be Regulars or Territorials? We shall want to know the full details of this plan which, I understand, are still being worked out. Indeed, I have a message from my noble friend the Duke of Norfolk regretting that he could not be in his place to hear the Statement to-day because he is in the Ministry of Defence discussing these matters.
We shall give full support if these proposals will bring about a proper home defence force and a well-trained Reserve capable of expansion. At first sight we are not sure that this Statement will go far enough, particularly in the light of recent events in Czechoslovakia and in the Mediterranean. We shall ask to have, after the Christmas Recess—because time is short now—a full debate to consider 1326 the whole problem of recruiting and reservists in all three Services. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Statement.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, I should like to endorse the expression of thanks to the Territorials for the services which they have rendered to the nation, and particularly for the patience which they have displayed in recent months. We propose to withhold comment on the merits of the detailed proposals until we have had more time to consider them, particularly in relation to the needs of the Army General Reserve as a whole. I would only ask the Minister at this moment when he thinks we shall get the Statement on the Army General Reserve which is promised in the Statement which he has just repeated, and for which I thank him.
§ 4.27 p.m.
§ LORD BOURNEMy Lords, I should like to offer one or two observations on the Statement which has been made by my noble friend Lord Winterbottom, and to ask him three questions. Admittedly the Statement and the further detailed working out will require a lot of study. So far it appears to me to be an ingenious shuffle and a funeral service of the Territorials.
The three questions I should like to ask are these. First, was any consideration given by the Government to the role of the Reserve Army, including the Volunteers and Territorials, or is the role still quite undefined? At one time it was moved over from the Ministry of Defence to the Home Office, under the Civil Defence role. That was more or less eliminated, and I made a plea at the time that the Territorial Army should resume its former role, its primary role, of home defence. I received no a answer, so I ask the question again: have the Territorial Army or the Volunteers a role in home defence?
The second question is this. A great emphasis is now being placed by the Government on the Volunteers, TAVR II; and TAVR III, the Territorials, are more or less being eliminated. Am I right in saying that the units and the individuals in TAVR II are merely to fill or to plug holes in the Regular Army, the Regular forces, and that there is no disposable Reserve? Every Commander who goes into battle, every war leader who goes into war, 1327 requires a Reserve, and he may well require that Reserve right at the beginning. Is there any disposable Reserve force other than these units to plug holes in the Regular forces? My third question is this: has consideration been given to the damage to the volunteer spirit on which this country has been built up and on which it now relies to a very large extent? The Territorials for many of us epitomise the best form of the volunteer spirit—the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, has just referred to many units who went to camp at their own expense this year. You could not have a finer body of men. Has consideration been given to the great damage to the volunteer movement, the volunteer spirit, in this country?
§ 4.30 p.m.
§ LORD BALERNOMy Lords, I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, in saying that this alteration does not go very far. I also agree with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, that this is an ingenious shuffle. It comes down to virtually one form of Reserve force: what is at present called TAVR II. Surely in these circumstances the Government should consider reverting to the old name of the Reserve forces—that is to say, "the Territorials" simpliciter—either Territorial Army or Territorial Force, as it was when formed by the Administration in 1906, when Lord Haldane was Secretary of State for War. It was the greatest pity that when the changes took place two or three years ago this extraordinary mix-up over names was made to apply to the Reserve forces of the Crown. One simple word could have been used, and I therefore beseech the Government to take this opportunity of returning to the single word "Territorials", dropping altogether the "Volunteer".
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, can the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, confirm that this plan which he has deployed has the full support of the Chiefs of Staff, without any reservations?
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, is not the noble Lord aware that this is a disastrous and dangerous policy for this country, especially in face of the troubled situation in the world to-day and the necessity to strengthen our forces having regard to our Continental commitments? 1328 In view of these factors, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Government will ensure that the Territorial drill halls are preserved, so that some future and wiser Government will be able to restore the Territorial Army to its old form?
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I make a brief comment, within the general framework of what I have said on many occasions in your Lordships' House? I very much regretted the wholesale reductions in the size of the Territorial Army which the Government found to be necessary a couple of years ago. Nevertheless, at first glance—and of course one can only form a snap opinion at the moment—it looks to me as if TAVR II will become a much more efficient organisation than it has been up to now, that its numbers will be increased, and that it will be a more effective form of Army Reserve than perhaps has been the case so far. For this reason, coupled with the fact that there has been a general improvement in the efficient organisation of the Army Reserve generally, I welcome this particular move.
I should like to ask my noble friend whether it is the intention of the Government, later on, when the economic condition of the country has improved, to build upon this newly reorganised TAVR II and to expand it because of the very important avenue for public service which it opens to many young men who might be keen to participate. I am delighted to hear that 100 cadres as well as the traditional titles of many proud regiments, are being preserved.
§ LORD FERRIERMy Lords, the countryside from which I come is the recruiting area for the Cameronians, now disbanded. Therefore, I welcome the proposal about the cadres and, like the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, I look forward to hearing more about it. Would the Government in relation to a regiment which has been disbanded (and I speak with some knowledge of the local wish that there should be some nucleus which will embody the military spirit of the area) consider allotting to it some sort of cadre to cover the area from which men used to be drawn?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, for his very helpful response to the Statement. I expect that the 1329 whole House will wish to have a debate on the general policy of the Reserves of the Armed Forces, and an appropriate moment must come fairly soon after a full Statement has been made about the future of the Army General Reserve in particular. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Byers, and indeed to other noble Lords, for the tributes paid to the Territorials and for their agreement with the hope that as many as possible will transfer to the Volunteers.
May I now try to answer the various points that have been put to me? The whole basis of this strengthening of TAVR II is to improve our reserve support to NATO. As I said in my Statement, the purpose of the increased size of TAVR II is mainly for logistic support in our increased NATO contribution. It is a support to our front-line forces and not, as the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, has said, a creation of a Reserve Army for home defence. That is the role of the strengthened TAVR 11.
The noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, asked me if the cadres would be made up of Regulars or Territorials. They will in fact be Volunteers, probably drawn from TAVR III units. I have noted what the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, said on the question of the creation of cadres, and I will write to him on the valid and important point which he has made.
In regard to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, about the retention of drill halls, I thought that I had made the matter clear in the interesting debate which took place on this subject in the middle of October. One hundred and fifty drill halls, which were the nuclei around which TAVR III operated, are being retained in one form or another. I indicated in my speech that 100 were required; a further 20 are required for additional Volunteer units, and the remaining 30 are by some means or other being retained for future use by the Volunteers if they should be required. I cannot say what are the exact mechanics, but it is intended to retain the full 150.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that somewhat reassuring reply, but does he mean that drill halls are being retained by the Ministry of Defence, although they may be used by someone else? I understood 1330 from his noble friend Lord Shackleton, who spoke to me about this matter some time ago, that a number of these drill halls were being offered for sale for other purposes altogether, and were not, in fact, being retained.
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I cannot speak for my noble friend but, speaking for myself, I can say that since the debate in October the situation has changed towards retention rather than disposal.
The noble Lord, Lord Balerno, suggested reverting to the old title of Territorials. This has been considered, but we believe that it does not sufficiently indicate the new role of the Volunteers—which of course is not only territorial but has a front-line Reserve significance. We believe that the name "Territorial Army Volunteer Reserve" indicates more properly the role of the new force, or rather the strengthened force, and should not be altered.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, asked me an impossible question. The basis of advice given by the Chiefs of Staff to the Secretary of State is a matter for them alone, but what I have stated to-day is certainly the policy of Her Majesty's Government. That is the significant point of importance rather than any interchange of advice given to the Secretary of State.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, I thought that the noble Lord would give me an answer in those terms. But since, during our discussions and debates every six months, Government spokesmen have not had one single wholehearted supporter in this House, I hoped he would tell us that at least the Chiefs of Staff are on their side.
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMLastly, my Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, asked what would be the function of this new, enlarged Territorial Army Volunteer Reserve. He asked whether it was to plug holes in the Regular forces. That is, perhaps, a rather forceful way of expressing the real facts of the case: its function is to supply reserves for existing Regular units and to replace casualties in them. May I thank the House once again for its very constructive approach on this matter?