§ LORD TEVIOTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government the reason for closing the railway line from Uckfield to Lewes, which was against the wishes of the Area Joint Consultative Committee and all local authorities.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE FOR THE ROYAL AIR FORCE (LORD WINTERBOTTOM)My Lords, before reaching his decision, my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport of course paid very serious attention to the views of the 1034 Transport Users' Consultative Committee for the South Eastern Area and of the local authorities concerned, together with those of the Regional Economic Panning Council. He also took account of all the other relevant factors in this proposal, among the most important of which were the financial losses on the existing train services, the comparatively small number of users, the possible alternative means of transport, and the heavy capital expenditure on the so-called "Hamsey Loop" which would have been required to maintain the rail services in the future, when Stage I of the Lewes Relief Road is built.
After the most careful consideration, my right honourable friend decided that he could not justify grant aid for the retention of services over this section of line, and he is satisfied that the hardship to passengers can be alleviated by the provision of additional bus services. The revised rail services from Uckfield to Hurst Green and from Eridge to Tunbridge Wells Central will receive grant.
§ LORD TEVIOTMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply, but would he please tell the House why a loop line has to be built over the new proposed road? Why cannot a flyover be built over the existing line?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I understand that the cost is excessive, because the bridge is not only over a road but also over a river at the same time. Geographically it is a somewhat tricky position.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, I apologise if my voice sounds like Tallulah Bankhead, which is accidental and not intentional. Is the Minister aware that in the last few years this line has acted as a safeguard and a relief for the Brighton railway when it has broken down, owing to flood or other accidental matters? If this line is shut there will be no relief for the Brighton line if it breaks down, and no relief for the passengers.
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that in closing this section we shall close an important line of communication for a large part of Kent, Sussex and Surrey, with Eastbourne, Newhaven arid Brighton? Further as the line is no longer continuous the losses on the part of the line North of 1035 Ucklield will necessarily be slightly larger and involve a larger subsidy. In the circumstances, would it not have been more sensible to build the bridge which is necessary to keep the line going?
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I shall answer the two questions at the same time. I am certain that the noble Baroness has no cause to apologise for her voice appearing to be that of a "pinup" of my youth. I am afraid, however, that her question is one that I cannot easily answer. Of course, one cannot plan a whole transport system to deal with hypothetical accidents: that would become quite impossibly expensive. But I am certain that this may have been a factor taken into consideration while the matter was being considered.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, I ask the Minister to realise that it is not a question of hypothesis. This has happened in the past, and happened quite frequently in the last few years.
LORD WINTER BOTTOMMy Lords, in answer to the noble Lord who asked me a question, may I say that there is no single factor in reaching this decision. There is the decision about the need to make the railways a paying proposition; the decision about whether or not a certain line should receive a grant-in-aid if it was felt necessary to keep it open for social purposes; and also the factor that the railway system is an old one and if the services which it has been decided to close were kept open very heavy capital expenditure was needed on this particular section of line. Those are all factors which were borne in mind by my right honourable friend when reaching his decision.
§ LORD TEVIOTMy Lords, following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, may I ask whether the noble Lord realises that by closing this line the railways will not save, but will lose £24,000?
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, would the Minister very kindly——
§ LORD SHACKLETONOne at a time!
§ LORD WINTERBOTTOMMy Lords, I have every confidence that my right 1036 honourable friend can do his sums; and having done his sums this is the decision he has reached.
§ LORD HANKEYMy Lords, would the Minister bear in mind that this railway line has been disgracefully neglected for years—for instance, the stations are still using oil lamps; they do not even have electricity—and that therefore the cost of modernising it is rather great? Nevertheless, economic need for it does exist.