§ 2.43 p.m.
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what further information or representations have been received by the Ministry of Transport and any other appropriate Ministry in respect of casualties and nuisances caused by cattle grazing and wandering through urban areas adjoining Epping Forest; approximately how many cattle under ancient rights are permitted to graze on forest land; and what action they have taken or consider taking to deal with this anomaly.]
§ LORD HILTON OF UPTONMy Lords, since my noble friend raised this problem in June the Ministries of Transport and of Housing and Local Government have received a few further representations. One, from a local Member of Parliament, included 50 signatures on a petition about damage to property and gardens. At the midsummer peak a total of about 450 cattle are grazed. Of 260 119 commoners entitled to graze their cattle only about 12 do so. These ancient rights are preserved by the Epping Forest Act 1878, under which the Corporation of the City of London are obliged to keep the forest unenclosed. Any amendment of the Corporation's duties or restriction of the rights of the commoners would require further local legislation. This is a matter for the local authorities concerned.
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, I would ask my noble friend whether he is aware that apparently most of the cattle wandering through Epping Forest seem to assemble regularly every day near my own house. And is my noble friend aware that the Corporation of the City of London, who are responsible for Epping Forest and who carry out their duties in a most admirable way, endeavoured to promote a Bill in the other place some few years ago, but unfortunately it was defeated on a Friday morning? Does my noble friend know whether the Corporation are likely to promote another Bill of a similar character? Further, may I ask him whether one of the difficulties regarding the limitation of this nuisance may not be compensation which would have to be paid to the owners of the cattle? If so, has he any information about that?
§ LORD HILTON OF UPTONMy Lords, I am aware that from time to time my noble friend has experienced difficulty caused by these wandering cattle. When we shared the same room he told me about having to go out in his pyjamas at 3.30 in the morning to "shush" cattle out of his garden. I would say this to my noble friend: all his neighbours do not share his views about cattle. Among representations made to one of the Ministries is a nice poem of some 38 lines. I wish I could read it all to your Lordships—
§ LORD HILTON OF UPTONPerhaps I could read two or three lines. The lady who wrote it says that she has had cows in the back of her garden, but that many other things also come to her garden, including birds, wind and rain, which damage her crops irreparably. She says that people can take all the other 120 things away, but for goodness sake leave the cows alone! I hope my noble friend will remember that there are two views about this matter. So far as compensation is concerned, my noble friend should also remember that where cattle are involved there are two sides. The owners could perhaps in some cases be sued for compensation—
§ LORD HILTON OF UPTONOn the other hand, there may be cases where the cattle are in the right, and it may be argued that there should be compensation for the owners.
§ LORD SORENSENMy Lords, that lady is not one of my neighbours.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend—and I speak as another who lives in Epping Forest and whose garden is regularly invaded by cows—whether it would not be sensible that these mediæval rights which commoners used to enjoy should now be abolished? Is he aware that almost every day the traffic on the main motor roads into London is held up because herds of unattended cattle stroll across the highways? Does he not think that the law ought to be brought up to date? Does he not think that the owners of the cattle might possibly have to be compensated and that this is an evil—
§ LORD LEATHERLANDIs my noble friend not aware—
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords, perhaps my noble friend would give way. I must say that the supplementary questions are longer than I have ever known. In fairness, I must also admit that so are some of the replies. If noble Lords, and my noble friends who sit on the Front Bench with me, will restrain themselves, we can proceed rather faster.
§ LORD HILTON OF UPTONMy Lords, I would draw the attention of my noble friend Lord Leatherland to what my noble friend Lord Shackleton has just said.