HL Deb 30 May 1968 vol 292 cc1348-57

8.34 p.m.

Further considered on Third Reading.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to remove certain words which might conceivably suggest that there are two kinds of bridle-ways, those closed to vehicular traffic ant those open to vehicular traffic, which of course would not be the case. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 57, line 30, leave out ("closed to vehicular traffic").—(Lord Kennet.)

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord for clarification on one point. In the event of a road used as a public path being reclassified as a bridleway, which with or without these words—and I am not arguing his Amendment—means that it is closed to traffic, what is the position of a landowner over whose land this traffic runs, and who was previously dependent upon it for his own farming purposes? It would mean that a road he has always been able to use would be closed to all vehicular traffic. Can the noble Lord say what the position would be?

LORD KENNET

My Lords, I cannot fully say, without notice of the question, but I can say in general terms that it is no part of the purposes of this Bill, anywhere along the line, to deprive landowners or anybody else of the right to get to their own houses and their own premises, out-houses, barns, or whatever it may be, by the means they have always used.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

8.35 p.m.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, the effect of this Amendment is that the ways shown on the map by any of the three new descriptions, when the roads used as public paths are split up, shall as from the date of publication of the definitive map in the special review be highways maintainable at public expense; and that any entry in the map describing a way as a "byway open to all traffic" will be conclusive evidence of the existence, at the date of publication of the map, of a public right of way for vehicular and all other kinds of traffic. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 57, leave out lines 36 to 40 and insert— ("(a) each way shown in the map in pursuance of this paragraph by any of the three descriptions shall be a highway maintainable at the public expense, (b) subject to paragraph (c) below, any entry in the map describing a way as a byway open to all traffic' shall be conclusive evidence of the existence on the date of publication of a public right of way for vehicular and all other kinds of traffic. (c) section 32(4)(c) of the Act of 1949 (position and width, and limitations or conditions affecting the public right of way, as shown in the statement) shall apply to any byway so shown as it applies to a footpath or bridle way.")—(Lord Kennet.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, this Amendment is consequential upon the Amendments we carried earlier about roads used as public paths in long distance routes. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 58. line 3, at end insert— (" (4) In subsection (2)(a) and in subsection (5) of section 51 of the Act of 1949 (long distance routes) references to roads used as public paths shall include references to any way shown on a definitive map and statement as a byway open to all traffic'.")—(Lord Kennet.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, this Amendment is intended to remove any shadow of doubt about the fact that a highway authority is riot requited to metal the surface of a "byway open to all traffic". I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 58, line 5, leave out from ("1967") to end of line 6 and insert ("or oblige a highway authority to provide, on a way shown on a definitive map as a 'byway open to all traffic', a metalled carriage-way, or a carriage-way which is by any other means provided with a surface suitable for the passage of vehicles.")—(Lord Kennel.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, this, I think, is a fairly self-explanatory Amendment designed to ensure that when it comes to consideration and the special review, the interests I mention in the Amendment will be properly consulted. In the circumstances, I must most strongly ask that this provision be put in, and I do so by means of begging leave to move the Amendment.

Amendment move—

Page 58, line 20, at end insert— (" () Before producing proposals for re-classification of roads used as public paths, the authority shall consult organisations representing vehicle users about any proposals to extinguish vehicular rights of way.").—(Lord Chesham.)

LORD KENNET

My Lords, it would really be quite an unusual thing to require the surveying authority to consult with interested bodies before producing proposals. No doubt they will or not as they think fit. But this really does not concern Statute Law. Statute Law provides that when the surveying authority produce their proposals, then there is a four-month period during which everybody with any conceivable interest has an opportunity to come forward and give his views on the proposals. This is the ,time for the organisations which the noble Lord has in mind to make their case about a given proposal, and it would not be in accordance with what is done either in planning law or in other fields in this Bill to require local authorities to consult anybody, particularly before even publishing their draft. I hope that with that explanation the noble Lord may be content to let it rest on the public inquiry and representation period, as is usual.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I might. I am not content; I may let it rest, but I am not content to do so, particularly because I view with the gravest suspicion the next Amendment in the name of the noble Lord. I think that if we move out the provisions for representation or objection to be made about the reclassification of roads as public paths—the noble Lord proposes to move out that provision—and there will not be a public inquiry at this stage, I think that perhaps my Amendment should go in.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, if I may at this point, with permission, speak again, I am not proposing in my next Amendment that the House should move out the provision about a public inquiry. It is only because the Amendments which we have just carried, concerning the public inquiry in the shortened review procedure, will apply to this sort of case that sub-paragraph (5) of paragraph 11 becomes redundant. It is simply because what we have just carried into the Bill is attracted to this that I am moving to leave out that paragraph. So there will be a public inquiry here, have no fear, by Lords.

LORD AIREDALE

My Lords, I wonder whether I could ask the Minister a question. Does the authority advertise. or in some way make known to interested organisations, its proposals for reclassification of roads, so that during this four months (if that is the period) the association have a proper opportunity of being aware that something is afoot, so as to have something about which to make representations? Is there adequate advertising of reclassification proposals?

LORD KENNET

My Lords, without having time to read through the Schedule, I believe the answer is Yes; they must advertise their proposals in this matter, as in others.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I am anxious to ensure that they do. There are in this country 1,200 authorities concerned with road affairs, and presumably 1,200 authorities—or maybe more, for all I know—who are going to be concerned in this review and reclassification. I should have thought that the acceptance of my Amendment would make certain that people concerned knew. We do not want 1,200 repetitions of this evening's procedure up and down the country.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, we do not indeed, if only because we should study the Bill, I think, a little more. There are not 1,200 highway authorities, and it is highway authorities we are talking about. It is in the Schedule that the proposals must be published in the London Gazette and in at least one local newspaper.

On Question, Amendment negatived.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, this is the Amendment which removes the public hearing provisions, which, as I have just said, are rendered redundant by the Amendment we carried earlier. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 58, line 29, leave out sub-paragraph (5).—(Lord Kennet.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CHESHAM moved, after paragraph 11 to insert: () No roads used as public paths shall be reclassified until all special reviews have been completed and the Minister has approved the proposals, provided that such approval shall not be given until the Minister has consulted organisations representing vehicle users concerning the overall effects of the reclassification proposals throughout the country.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a somewhat more important Amendment. It is designed to ensure that the national effect of the proposals—that is to say, the total mileage over the whole country and its interconnections on which the vehicular rights of way will be extinguished—will be considered as such before any re-classification becomes operative. It will he extremely important, because when individual cases are considered the national effect of the proposals as a whole on the facilities for vehicles for leisure, pleasure, business and sport will not be apparent unless the matter is looked at in this way. I am convinced that if we do not have this Amendment and the whole thing is done piecemeal, we run the risk of ending up in a proper muddle which may take years to sort out, because as tracks run from the area of one authority to another, each of which may take a different view and different actions, we run the risk of making the country in this respect look like a lot of spaghetti cut up in short lengths with a knife. This is a reasonable Amendment. The Minister would need consultation with the people who are referred to in the Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 58, line 32 at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Chesham.)

LORD KENNET

My Lords, I quite take the point of the noble Lord's Amendment, but I expect and hope that since he has already carried into effect an Amendment which makes the whole of this part of Schedule 3 dependent on an Order to be made by the Minister at a later date, and he has done it with the object of a general consultation about the provisions in the Bill which may at a later time be amended in another place, he may regard this point, too, as something which can be discussed between us and therefore be prepared on that basis to withdraw the Amendment.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, on that assurance, if the noble Lord is happy to include this matter among the subjects about which consultation can be arranged in the near future before further action is taken, I will indeed agree to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD KENNET moved, after paragraph 11, to insert:

Survey begun after commencement of Act

"12.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph, paragraphs 9 and 10 above shall apply to an initial survey begun after the coming into force of this Act as if it were the first review so begun.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this applies the three new descriptions of "roads used as public paths" to any public rights of way survey begun after the commencement of the Act. For ex- ample, a county borough council, not having adopted the survey provisions of the 1949 Act, may decide to do so some time in the future. The survey should, of course, include roads used as public paths on the new basis. This Amendment simply enables that to be done. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 58, line 32, at end insert the said paragraph.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

8.48 p.m.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Countryside Bill, has consented to place her interest so far as it is concerned on behalf of the Crown, the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.

Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Kennet.)

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I think it was arranged in the normal way that the Third Reading debate should take place at this stage of the Bill. I have said, in moving Amendments, that there are certain matters about which A this stage I would speak at some length, but the progress of the Amendments which I moved tonight has been such that I do not think it is necessary for me to speak at length on these matters. I have said quite enough about my feelings in regard to the way that particular parts of the Bill have been handled in the House, and have spoken abundantly, the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, may feel, of my thoughts on the subject of the lack of consultation. I think that point is well taken and does not need any argument.

All I will now say, therefore, is that I am left with the belief that perhaps the Government have not appreciated the strength of the feeling which exists in the minds of, for want of a better term, we will call the motoring world. I would say to him. "Do not underestimate the strength of the feeling about this matter." Coupled with certain other occurrences over the last year or two, there is a fairly widespread feeling that the Government tend to adopt rather a cavalier attitude towards the motoring world. I am not going to make any more of it. I am trying not to overstate any kind of case. It may be that they get annoyed and resentful when some students throw bottles in the street. I do not think the motoring community will throw bottles in the street, but it does not mean that in these instances they are not left with strong feelings, and genuine feelings, of resentment and dissatisfaction. Having said that, my Lords, basically I wish the Government well with this Bill. If, up to now, I have had to consider it rather a half-cooked porridge of a Bill, I still wish them luck with it and a minimum of the subsequent, and what seems to me in some ways inevitable, indigestion.

8.52 p.m.

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, a good deal has gone wrong during the progress of this Bill. I, for one, have not held the noble Lord, Lord Kennet to blame. I think other forces have been operating. There certainly seems to have been a very bad breakdown of communications somewhere in the matter with which my noble friend Lord Chesham is concerned, because he appears to have been in communication with the Minister and his communications do not seem to have been conveyed to the Parliamentary Secretary. That is, to me, inexplicable, but I, for one, as I have said, do not hold the Parliamentary Secretary to blame at all. I have already indicated those respects in which I hold the Government to blame For my part, I should like to end these long debates on a friendly note. Though this Bill gives rise to hard feelings in some respects, it is not a Bill that has been regarded as controversial on Party lines, and I venture to think that your Lordships' House has done a great deal of good to it in its discussions. I do not know what view noble Lords opposite will take, but I should forecast that practically every one of the Amendments that we have made here will be acceptable in another place. This is an eminent example of the kind of Bill where, by constructive work, your Lordships' House can do great good to the Statute Book. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, for all the trouble he has taken over my Amendments aid in answering my speeches, considering that only three days ago he was in bed with a high temperature. He has stuck it out extremely well to-day, and I think we should enable him to go home as soon as possible.

LORD CHORLEY

My Lords, I speak at the risk of keeping him another minute or two in order to associate myself very much with what has just been said by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, and to send this Bill on its next stage with great gratification, because there is no question at all that this is a Bill of outstanding importance to the countryside movement. As the noble Lord has said, it has been tremendously improved during its passage through your Lordships' House. That improvement has to a substantial extent been due to the work which your Lordships have done here, but at the same time the Government have implemented promises made in another place, and they have not had a great deal of time in which to do it, but these implementations have given rise to much satisfaction. During the last few days I have had messages coming in from those who work in the National Parks up and down the country and from the different societies which have been doing their best to work with the Government in order to make this Bill a really first-class measure. That is very gratifying, and I hope will to some extent reward the Minister, who has given unflagging zeal and great courtesy to us all during a very gruelling period. His courtesy and patience has, I am sure, impressed all Members of your Lordships' House, and I should like him to feel that we are very grateful to him for what he has done.

8.56 p.m.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, perhaps I should not let the Bill go without saying my word or two. I think we have got a good Bill here. I am convinced that in almost all respects in which we have altered it we have altered it for the better. It has been an example of what one might call continuous legislation. One can do that on a non-controversial Bill, and I should like to compliment and thank the Members of this House—and none more than my noble adversary, Lord Brooke of Cumnor—for the part they have played in this process of continuous legislation. On certain occasions when there is a basic community of view on two sides it is safe to run after the Bill with Amendments until quite a late stage. In this one is trading on everybody's good sense and good temper, and I am very glad that it has paid off, and I am glad that the Bill has been improved in details right down to the last moment. Let me compliment the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cum nor, first of all for his unflagging patience, mitigated only by his sharpness of view, with which I am becoming familiar and the rest of your Lordships have been familiar longer than I have. I wish to thank all of those who have contributed in the multifarious stages of this Bill in order to improve it.

On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

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