§ 3.06 p.m.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of their proposals for reductions in the Army, to give any details of contemplated reductions or amalgamations in Scottish regiments.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT)My Lords, I have nothing to add to an Answer given on May 1 to a similar Question in another place which was:
No further decisions on the future of any major Army units have yet been taken. Details of further reductions will be given in a statement on defence policy to be published later this year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 1/5/68; col. 1105.]
LORD THURLOWMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply, but are the Government here in England aware of the special position occupied by each Scottish regiment in the national life of its own area—more so than is the case with their counterparts South of the Border? Is he further aware that Scotland has lost five of its old regiments in recent years, including last month the Cameronians, after 279 years of great service, which I submit is already too high a proportion for a nation of our size? And are the Government aware that there are other regiments which, unlike the Scottish regiments, have still two or three battalions without anything like such a high record of recruiting?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, the answer in all three cases is, Yes, the Government are aware of these matters, As 382 a member myself, like the noble Lord, of a warlike tribe, I have great sympathy with the points he has put, and I can assure him that the Government, in coming to their final decision, will bear in mind all these considerations.
§ BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOODMy Lords, I gathered from the noble Lord that decisions have not yet been taken on the important point of the Scottish regiments. Do the Government want to add fuel to the flames of the Scottish National Party if they do away with regiments like the Royal Scots Greys, the Cameronians and others? I would ask the noble Lord to remember that. Furthermore, if the Royal Scots Greys are disbanded, what regiment will undertake the NATO contribution which is made to-clay by the Royal Scots Greys?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, the second part of the noble Lady's Question is based on a hypothesis and does not arise. So far as the first part of the question is concerned, we will bear in mind the political as well as the military implications.
§ LORD BALERNOMy Lords, may I ask whether the Government are aware that under their new system of divisional reorganisation of the infantry, the Highland Division now has the Lowest number of battalions?
§ LORD CHALFONTYes, my Lords, the Government are aware of that mathematical calculation, but I fear that infantry regiments and other units all over the country and indeed in Wales, have suffered and are suffering from these reorganisations. We are sorry for what has happened, but we have debated all this before and have agreed, I think, that the reorganisations themselves inevitably flow from the larger defence decisions.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I, as one who has not a drop of Scottish spirit in his veins, ask my noble friend to bear in mind in connection with this reorganisation that the most heartening message which any battle-tired unit can hear is, "The Jocks are coming!"?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I believe that the noble Lord in his Answer used the word "major" in regard to decisions. Could he say what decisions have been reached already, and could he circulate those decisions?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I think that there may have been a misunderstanding from the use of the term "major unit". "Major Unit" is simply a military expression for a battalion or equivalent unit in the Army and is generally used in Staff duties. When I said "major unit", I was referring to the infantry, cavalry, gunner and engineer regiments of the Army in general. No decisions have in fact been taken. When they are taken they will be announced when the Defence White Paper is published later this year.
LORD THURLOWMy Lords, will the Government bear in mind the fact that the infantry and the armoured regiments are the ones which have far the biggest percentage of casualties in any kind of fighting, be it a small or a large war, and that it is most important that we should have a very large reserve of fighting, regimental manpower?
§ LORD CHALFONTYes, my Lords, of course we shall bear that in mind; but I know that the noble Lord will not confuse reserves for units with the number of units in the order of battle.
§ BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOODMy Lords, the noble Lord said that decisions had not been taken. Will there be a possibility of discussing this matter before decisions are taken?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, when the Government's Statement on this matter is published it can, of course, be debated in both Houses of Parliament, and will be.
§ LORD FERRIERMy Lords, as a resident of Lanarkshire, may I ask the noble Lord to give an assurance that, before taking these decisions, the Government will give due consideration to the fact that further disbandments or amalgamations will leave large areas without regimental loyalties or territorial backing (I mean territorial in terms of geography), which will have a serious effect on recruiting generally?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I know that my right honourable friend has very much in mind the effect on recruiting, among other things, of the need to reorganise the infantry and Army as a whole, and he will certainly bear this in mind in reaching his decisions.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, can the noble Lord give any indication when the further statement on defence policy is likely to be published?
§ LORD CHALFONTNo, my Lords, I am afraid I cannot give any exact date. It will be later on in the Summer. My noble Leader tells me that it will be near the end of July. That is his guess, and his guesses are usually good ones.
§ LORD BALERNOMy Lords, could the noble Lord give me an assurance that before the Government come to a decision in this matter they will give full consideration to the fact that the Infantry of the Line are perfectly competent to perform all ceremonial duties which the Army may be called upon to do?
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, in spite of the "Hear, hears!" which come from my own Front Bench, I think that is a contentious remark and I should not like to follow the noble Lord along that line.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, can the noble Lord assure us that the White Paper will, in fact, be published in time for it to be considered and debated in Parliament before the Recess?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, that is certainly the intention of Her Majesty's Government.