§ 2.39 p.m.
§ LORD KILMANYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether a decision can now be announced regarding the future of the Edinburgh, Galashiels, Carlisle railway service in the light of the Report on a plan for expansion of the Central Borders issued by the Scottish Development Department.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (LORD SHEPHERD)My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport is considering this matter in consultation with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. The Report on the Central Borders is among the matters being given due weight in the evaluation of this important case.
§ LORD KILMANYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for the assurance that the Report is being given due weight, may I ask whether he is aware of the conclusion at which that Report arrived; namely, that the closing of the line between Edinburgh, Galashiels and Carlisle would certainly have an unfortunate effect upon the fulfilment of planning targets in the Border? In view of that very definite opinion, which is supported by practically everybody else who has examined the subject, cannot the Government give an assurance forthwith that the line will not be closed?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am well aware of the conclusions of that Report, and also of the views of other organisations which have inquired into this important problem. The social and economic considerations have to be borne in mind alongside the heavy cost to the taxpayers in the maintenance of this line. As the noble Lord will be aware, the Report on the Central Borders lays heavy stress upon the development of a proper road system in the Borders. This is obviously part of the evaluation that we must take into account.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to bear in mind 1324 that this is not just a Scottish question; that this railway is an extremely important part of the general communication system of the whole of the North of England and the South of Scotland; and that it is not convincing to tell us that an improved network of roads is under consideration, bearing in mind what happened in West Cumberland, where the railway has disappeared and the roads have not improved. Will the noble Lord use his good offices to ensure that this and other important railways in the area are in fact retained?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I respond to the "Hear, hears!" But is it not a fact that the Government are being continually pressed in the field of public expenditure, including the deficits that have been incurred by the railways in operations of lines rather similar to this? The noble Lord will be aware that the cost of this line in taxpayers' money is close on half a million pounds a year, or approximately that figure.
§ LORD SHEPHERDThe noble Lord must keep in order. Therefore we have to bear in mind what is the cost here and what, in the long term, is the proper development for this area. This is the reason why there is delay in coming to a conclusion.
§ BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOODMy Lords, as the noble Lord, I think, knows, my use of this railway is constant. May I tell him that the impression that is now—
§ BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOODDoes the noble Lord understand that the impression which this lack of decision is making on the railway staff is very considerable?—and I hope that, for the benefit of the staff, the noble Lord will realise that this position is really becoming very acute. Will he please do something about it?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I hope that the Scots will help to keep the House 1325 in order. I am well aware of all the implications that arise regarding this decision, and of the morale of the railway staff; but I think that those who know this area and the problems that exist, and the hope of development in the area, will agree that what we must do is to get the right answer here. This is why care and attention are being given in evaluating not only the Report of the Borders Commission but the reports of other organisations.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, would the Government bear in mind two things: first, that the cost of this important railroad is infinitesimal by comparison with the construction of an enormous trunk road system running all over the South of Scotland; secondly, that the closing of this railroad would not only put a stop to any extensive development of the Borders but might deal a damaging blow at one of our most profitable export industries, the woollen industry?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, has claimed to be an economist, and he will therefore recognise that the cost of developing a road is capital expenditure, whereas the loss I am talking about is a loss that is incurred year by year and is increasing. This, again, is a matter that has to be borne in mind.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, if the Government came to what many of us think would be an entirely wrong decision to close this railway, would they consider having the rails not torn up but left as they are, because undoubtedly in the course of a few years the line would have to be reopened?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, we are a long way away from such a position, of the lines being torn up. The Minister has not yet even decided whether the line for passenger transport, which is what we are discussing, should be closed. I know that this is a matter of very great interest, but we have a very long business programme in front of us. I am sure that if the Scottish Peers, our Scottish colleagues, wish to deploy this argument there will be opportunities for them to do so, and I suggest, with due respect to the House, that we should now move to the next Question.
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, in spite of my noble friend's request, is it not a fact that the enthusiasm now shown could be put to good effect in the area by the use of the railway by passengers and freight? There world then be no need for it to be discontinues.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, my noble friend, as always, is right.
§ LORD SOMERSMy Lords, would the Government consider, if they feel that they can no longer run traffic over this line, selling the line to a private c3mpany which might perhaps run it a little more efficiently?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I would not accept the implication of the noble Lord's question.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the noble Lord, Lord Beeching, was appointed to cut out uneconomic railways, and nothing was said? It is only because of the fact that there may be interests in this particular line that this opposition is arising. Is he further aware that pits that had not been closed have now been closed by the thousand, without a complaint from the other side? I would ask noble Lords to accept the medicine that Lord Beeching laid down for us.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I think that my noble friend has by way of a question put his finger on the point. We all want to see change we all want to see modernisation, efficiency and value for money—but not when it affects our particular area or our particular interest. That perhaps is the main problem.