§ 2.40 p.m.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what contribution the Treasury makes to the costs of the Crown Agents' office, staff, and functions, what other Governments contribute, who is responsible for the appointment of its administrators, and to whom they report their activities.]
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, no contributions are made by the Treasury to the costs of the Crown Agents' office. I am told also that no such contributions are made by any other Government. The Crown Agents have a published scale of charges for the services which they provide, and these charges are paid by individual principals to the extent to which they employ the Crown Agents' services. These charges cover the cost of the office and staff. The three Crown Agents are appointed by the Minister of Overseas Development and they appoint their own staff. They report to their principals on the work which they carry out on their behalf and at their expense. In addition they publish an Annual Report.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether this institution has not now become an anomaly 1262 and whether, in view of the fact that Her Majesty's Government bear the major expenses for it through the Treasury and through Overseas Development appointed administrators—if I am wrong, I have misheard—it is not an anomaly that this institution should be able, for ample, to buy arms from foreign Governments which are used for purposes which have not the endorsement of this Government, as in Nigeria to-day? May I ask my noble friend whether he will not consider looking at the whole basis of this institution, in view of the modern circumstances of the Commonwealth?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I apologise to my noble friend because I did not make myself clear to him. I said that no contributions were made by the Treasury to the Crown Agents office; and that is a fact. The noble Lord has deployed an argument by way of a question, which he did with great force the other day when I made it perfectly clear what Her Majesty's Government's view was. I have nothing further to add.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, is it not a fact that if the Crown Agents' services were not required by their customers the Crown Agents would not exist? Are not their services very much appreciated by territories, now independent, which were formerly Colonies?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. He may be interested to know that the Crown Agents service some 80 different Governments, some within the Commonwealth and some outside the Commonwealth, and also some 160 international organisations.
§ LORD ERROLL OF HALEMy Lords, could the noble Lord inform you Lordships that the Crown Agents do rot discriminate in any way against our EFTA partners in their placing of contracts?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the relationship of the Crown Agents is with their principals, on the basis of a customer seeking a service. It is perfectly right, as the noble Lord, Lord Erroll, has said, that they buy according to the wishes of their principals.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I apologise to my noble friend for mishearing him, as I quite genuinely did. But may I ask him this further question? 1263 In the present position of the Commonwealth, is not the Crown Agents institution an anomaly? Is it not the case (unless I again misheard him) that the administrators are appointed by our Overseas Development Corporation, yet the Agency is responsible to the independent Commonwealth Government? Does not that situation merit some reconsideration?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, there is much in our life which I suppose could be said to be an anomaly, but this is an organisation that has been in being for some 100 years. It has given great service to the Commonwealth and Colonial Governments, and I think it would be utterly wrong for us to take a special view in this organisation, which is clearly for the service of Commonwealth and other Governments who wish to use it.
§ LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will use their influence to alter the name of the "Crown Agents" in the near future.]
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I do not feel that Her Majesty's Government should use their influence to change this title, which has been in use for over 100 years and is held in high regard in both financial and commercial circles both here and overseas.
§ LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him whether the Government will reconsider this matter, in view of the fact that the Crown Agents do not appear to be under the control either of the Crown or of Her Majesty's Government, and that therefore, there may be considerable misconceptions on the part of people who do not know the situation so long as they are called "Crown Agents"?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I do not think there is any misconception. As I replied to the noble Lord, Lord Erroll, this is an organisation that not only buys on behalf of its principals in the United 1264 Kingdom but is perfectly free to buy anywhere in Europe, and I suppose, for that matter, in Russia and China. It is merely a service. It has given service to 80 countries and 160 international organisations. I should have thought that if there was a feeling that there should be a change, it would be best left to the Crown Agents and their principals to say whether a change should be made.
§ LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEYMy Lords, why the title "Crown Agents", if they are not responsible to the Crown?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, it is a part of history. Originally the organisation was called the Crown Agents for the Colonies, and then it was later changed to the Crown Agents for Overseas Government Administrations. It is just a question of history.
§ LORD COLYTONMy Lords, is it not a fact that under their existing name the amount of business transacted by the Crown Agents every year is increasing enormously, both in countries in Her Majesty's dominions and in Commonwealth and other overseas countries? Secondly, is it not a fact that there is not the slightest evidence that the name "Crown Agents" has ever deterred any country from making use of its services, but, on the contrary, the office's record and the very high standards it has set have been of the highest value, as the noble Lord said, in both commercial and financial circles throughout the world?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, if there is any proof in the pudding it is clearly in the eating, and, as the noble Lord has said, the principals are obviously satisfied with the services of the Crown Agents.
§ LORD MITCHISONMy Lords, is it not like Lloyd's Agents, for whom Lloyd's have a major responsibility in connection with surveys, but who do a lot of other business all over the world for which Lloyd's have no responsibility whatever?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, that is a "twister". If my noble friend will permit me, I will read it and perhaps reply to it.